Home Trending Latest threads New posts Developer diaries

Latin Caracole Cavalry or Gallop Cavalry?

Jump to latest Follow Reply
  • We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.
Europa Universalis III 46143 EU3 - After Action Reports (AAR)
unmerged(399969)

unmerged(399969)

Sergeant
3 Badges
Oct 25, 2011
78
0
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Divine Wind
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
I noticed while playing earlier that the stats of these two units present a pretty interesting choice.

Latin Caracole Cav offer the following stats
Offensive Fire: 2
Defensive Fire: 0
Offensive Shock 3
Defensive Shock 2
Offensive Morale 2
Defensive Shock 2

While Gallop offers this:
Offensive Fire: 0
Defensive Fire: 0
Offensive Shock 4
Defensive Shock 2
Offensive Morale 4
Defensive Shock 2

Now, by pure number of pips, Gallop is better by 1. But the Caracole has 2 in fire while the gallop has none at all. I was wondering if the gurus here could let me know which one of these is the better cav for whatever situation.
 
Cavalry's shock tech modifier will never be less than 8x bigger than cavalry's fire tech modifier after the Gallop is unlocked. For all intents and purposes, the Fire stats on cavalry can be ignored. Gallop is superior.
 
President_Eden said:
Cavalry's shock tech modifier will never be less than 8x bigger than cavalry's fire tech modifier after the Gallop is unlocked. For all intents and purposes, the Fire stats on cavalry can be ignored. Gallop is superior.
Click to expand...

To be precise, the offensive fire pips on cavalry can be safely ignored. Defensive fire pips on cavalry are equally effective as on infantry.

But yes, in general you want the highest offensive shock value for cavalry.
 
Lol, i even don't know why caracolle got offensive fire!?! It could have defensive fire, because caracolle is mostly anti - infantry formation - actualy hussars were better than western cavalry, IMHO caracolle should have stats like :
0 offensive fire
2 deffensive fire
2 offensive shock
2 deffensive shock
2 offensive morale
2 deffensive morale

just because it would make them lot more reasonable (and imho the ottoman and muslim cavalry should also be balanced, because they were not THAT superior to western/eastern european cavalry in XV century)

Actualy i think it is just morocco should get some buffs in manpower and forcelimit, because now, even with its superior cavalry it get smashed by castille(AI does not uses the muslim cavalry too much as castille, and player does, and this is reason why he owns the AI...).

EDIT: And here also i think that Gallop should have stats like:
0 offensive fire
0 deffensive fire
3 offensive shock
3 defensive shock
3 offensive morale
3 deffensive morale
 
Iwanow you should know that the game is very incosistant when it comes to naming units, its almost like the paradox devs made a bunch of random stats and then draw names out of a hat to assign to each bunch of stats

wiki said:
Man-at-arms (also called armsman or coistrel) was a term used from the High Medieval to Renaissance periods to describe a soldier, almost always a professional warrior in the sense of being well-trained in the use of arms, who served as a fully armoured heavy cavalryman
Click to expand...
 
Can someone explain why the game has different unit types unlocked by the same tech level when there is no actual choice between them e.g. one is clearly better? This is mostly true with cannons where I always go for culverin and demi-chambered afterwards.
 
Interesting how the game makes cavalry offensive fire value almost useless (I didn't know that). The caracole tactic is indeed described in the book "Fighting Techniques of the Early Modern World" as a "useless and complex theater" practiced by the cavalry of the 16th century. Cavalry is a weapon for shock, not firepower. Just a curiosity post :p
 
walrus8303 said:
Can someone explain why the game has different unit types unlocked by the same tech level when there is no actual choice between them e.g. one is clearly better? This is mostly true with cannons where I always go for culverin and demi-chambered afterwards.
Click to expand...
Certain AI nations use certain units.
 
Dhanun said:
Interesting how the game makes cavalry offensive fire value almost useless (I didn't know that). The caracole tactic is indeed described in the book "Fighting Techniques of the Early Modern World" as a "useless and complex theater" practiced by the cavalry of the 16th century. Cavalry is a weapon for shock, not firepower. Just a curiosity post :p
Click to expand...

It is because it was anti-infantry tactic, and actualy this book, is just wrong, because people who wrote it did not realy understand usefullness of it. The firearms at those times, were not so greatly advanced, so and the caracolle realy was to make enemy confused, by making rounds and shoot at the enemy before making a charge. It was used to soften the enemy ranks to allow the charge to be realy effective(and if enemy had pikeman it could increase chances of defeating them).
 
walrus8303 said:
Can someone explain why the game has different unit types unlocked by the same tech level when there is no actual choice between them e.g. one is clearly better? This is mostly true with cannons where I always go for culverin and demi-chambered afterwards.
Click to expand...
Probably to give you a choice, but they were never properly balanced and most certainly not in regard to all the changes to combat we have seen over the years.

The AI does indeed have a scripted list of units it will pick, which are mostly very silly (such as Austria using Latin knights until the 1750s)
 
Grubnessul said:
Probably to give you a choice, but they were never properly balanced and most certainly not in regard to all the changes to combat we have seen over the years.

The AI does indeed have a scripted list of units it will pick, which are mostly very silly (such as Austria using Latin knights until the 1750s)
Click to expand...

That's interesting, I never stop learning new things about this great game.
 
While in most cases Gallop Cav is better, but you should check your opponent. And if his infantry has high shock defence and low fire defence, than you should consider Caracole.

This conclusion is due to the fact, that casualties are calculated differently for 2 cases: Off > Def and Off<Def
When Off>Def, than casualties=k*(Off-Def)
When Off<Def, than casualties=k*2^(Off-Deff), i.e. it is falling significantly

Read more here:
http://www.paradoxian.org/eu3wiki/Military#Combat


Also, add here your general's stats (and opponent's too)
If you general has Fire 6 and Shock 1 (or if his Fire 3, Shock 3, but his opponent's Fire 0 Shock 6), you should consider Caracole Cav.


Historically, caracole tactics was successfully used by reiters, and mostly by them, because this tactics need very high discipline.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reiter

Anyway, useful firearmed cavalry was rare. And most cavalry tactics were based on shock strikes.
 
Cavalry Fire modifire at land tech 27 = 0.3
Cavalry shock modifire at land tech 27 = 4

It is multiplier...

max modified dice = 12
Max damage in fire phase cavalry could do (at land tech 27) = 12*0,3*6 = 21,6

As most units at land tech 27 have at least 3 fire defence(at land tech 28 it is 4), and caracolle got 2 offensive fire, you got -1 modifire to modified roll. max roll is 9. This is substracted by 1, so mod. roll = 8. You need at least 4 fire general (counting that the enemy got no fire generals). If you have 6 fire general and enemy got no fire, you got 3/10 chances of doing 21,6 fire damage per one cavalry unit(2/10 if enemy got land tech 28 units).

At best your enemy will have 4 shock defence. If he also defend in mountains and you disembarked your unit from ship, you get max -7 shock from terrain.

With -7 shock modifire and no general you do :

2^-7 * 6 * 4 = 0,0078125 * 6 * 4 = 0,1875 damage minimum...
at roll 1 you do 0,375 damage
at roll 2 you do 0.75 damage
at roll 3 you do 1,5 damage
at roll 4 you do 3 damage
at roll 5 you do 6 damage
at roll 6 you do 12 damage
at roll 7 you do 24 damage
at roll 8 you do 24 damage
at roll 9 you do 24 damage

So even at worst odds, you still do more damage in shock than in best odds you do with fire when you use cavalry.
 
Ooooooh! It's time to bring out my calculator!

Seriously, I understand that it's good to know what's going on behind the scene but this kills the fun for me.
 
Iwanow said:
Cavalry Fire modifire at land tech 27 = 0.3
Cavalry shock modifire at land tech 27 = 4

It is multiplier...

max modified dice = 12
Max damage in fire phase cavalry could do (at land tech 27) = 12*0,3*6 = 21,6

As most units at land tech 27 have at least 3 fire defence(at land tech 28 it is 4), and caracolle got 2 offensive fire, you got -1 modifire to modified roll. max roll is 9. This is substracted by 1, so mod. roll = 8. You need at least 4 fire general (counting that the enemy got no fire generals). If you have 6 fire general and enemy got no fire, you got 3/10 chances of doing 21,6 fire damage per one cavalry unit(2/10 if enemy got land tech 28 units).

At best your enemy will have 4 shock defence. If he also defend in mountains and you disembarked your unit from ship, you get max -7 shock from terrain.

With -7 shock modifire and no general you do :

2^-7 * 6 * 4 = 0,0078125 * 6 * 4 = 0,1875 damage minimum...
at roll 1 you do 0,375 damage
at roll 2 you do 0.75 damage
at roll 3 you do 1,5 damage
at roll 4 you do 3 damage
at roll 5 you do 6 damage
at roll 6 you do 12 damage
at roll 7 you do 24 damage
at roll 8 you do 24 damage
at roll 9 you do 24 damage

So even at worst odds, you still do more damage in shock than in best odds you do with fire when you use cavalry.
Click to expand...

Great math!
although you did not consider probabilities of each case (although to be honest I think it's nearly impossible)

One thing you forget, that Caracole could use Shock phase two, and Gallope could fire. So, you should compare total damage in Fire and Shock phases for both units.

It is also important, that combat starts with Fire phase, so Fire-oriented units have an advantage.


The main difference between Gallope and Caracole is not 1 point in shock offence (4 instead of 3 in exchange of 2 fire) but morale offence (4 instead of 2).
So Gallope is significantly more frightening.
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top Bottom
Back