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Thread: Ugh... Roman Empire

  1. #21
    Nice to see that mission will finally get fixed.
    The biggest pain is that using the CB against Naples that comes with the mission, you can't actually annex Naples in one war. I always assumed it was a bug and just triggered the province flip decision since it gives the same infamy as conquest.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by ywhtptgtfo View Post
    It's basic mathematics. The % is fixed, which means as discipline gets higher, the difference becomes smaller, proportionally. Also, Roman Empire does not get to have absolute monarchy very easily, so the effective discipline difference is 3%. There are many more important factors in MP that'd more than nullify this paper-thin advantage.
    Discipline works on addition modifiers, so whilst it gets proportionally lower as discipline gets higher, you still get 8% higher than the base value (ignoring other discipline modifiers). As for mp, have you actually played EU3 mp? One of the key sliders is the quality/quantity one to get yourself 10% discipline, and the militia act, giving yourself 6% discipline. In fact, 5% discipline could be the difference between winning and losing a war - it is certainly not a 'paper-thin' advantage.
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  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by lukew View Post
    Discipline works on addition modifiers, so whilst it gets proportionally lower as discipline gets higher, you still get 8% higher than the base value (ignoring other discipline modifiers). As for mp, have you actually played EU3 mp? One of the key sliders is the quality/quantity one to get yourself 10% discipline, and the militia act, giving yourself 6% discipline. In fact, 5% discipline could be the difference between winning and losing a war - it is certainly not a 'paper-thin' advantage.
    As I've said, absolute monarchy gives 5% bonus to discipline. If other countries are absolute monarchies, this 8% advantage becomes 3%, big deal. Tell me you are going to switch all the way to absolute monarchy as roman empire.

    I am rather skeptical about your assertion that 5% discipline difference is a make or break in MP. Maybe I should start a thread in the general forum and see what MP veterans like stkdjsakdwagner and Lama43 have to say.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by ywhtptgtfo View Post
    As I've said, absolute monarchy gives 5% bonus to discipline. If other countries are absolute monarchies, this 8% advantage becomes 3%, big deal. Tell me you are going to switch all the way to absolute monarchy as roman empire.

    I am rather skeptical about your assertion that 5% discipline difference is a make or break in MP. Maybe I should start a thread in the general forum and see what MP veterans like stkdjsakdwagner and Lama43 have to say.
    Hahaha, Lama43 is a veteran?
    Sorry, I had to make that Lama joke . Pewt/Elcyion/Silktrader/Cwuelty etc. are all real veterans, and they always emphasize the importance of having even a small difference in discipline.

    PS. I've been playing longer than Lama.

    As for your point about the absolute monarchy bonus, you can just switch to absolute monarchy and you get 5% + 8%. There's no reason for you not to get the other bonuses on top of the Roman Militart Reforms ones. And yes, I would switch 'all the way' for the bonus. Governments can be changed when at -3 stab, so I'd wait until I was at low stab anyway then take all the hits for switching governments.
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  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by lukew View Post
    Governments can be changed when at -3 stab, so I'd wait until I was at low stab anyway then take all the hits for switching governments.
    There is a good argument somewhere to change it so you cannot change governments unless at +3 stability. That is most certainly gaming the system.

    (probably evens out with all the +1 stability events I get when at +3 stability though)

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by zedyue View Post
    There is a good argument somewhere to change it so you cannot change governments unless at +3 stability. That is most certainly gaming the system.
    (probably evens out with all the +1 stability events I get when at +3 stability though)
    The government system is hard coded and there's no way for me to change it.
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  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by ywhtptgtfo View Post
    As I've said, absolute monarchy gives 5% bonus to discipline. If other countries are absolute monarchies, this 8% advantage becomes 3%, big deal. Tell me you are going to switch all the way to absolute monarchy as roman empire.

    I am rather skeptical about your assertion that 5% discipline difference is a make or break in MP. Maybe I should start a thread in the general forum and see what MP veterans like stkdjsakdwagner and Lama43 have to say.
    8% discipline is a huge advantage. People don't use absolute monarchy just because the penalty (way less forcelimit) is not really worth it, but in every other case people get all the discipline they can. PMR's 20% discipline is borderline gamebreaking.

    In addition, unless luke has an event which removes Roman Military Reforms when you switch governments (don't know if he does), then you can switch to a more regular form of government after picking it.

    Obviously it's a little weaker than vanilla thanks to Quality being twice as strong, but it's still good. There's a reason everybody stacks discipline in MP.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by lukew View Post
    As for your point about the absolute monarchy bonus, you can just switch to absolute monarchy and you get 5% + 8%. There's no reason for you not to get the other bonuses on top of the Roman Militart Reforms ones. And yes, I would switch 'all the way' for the bonus. Governments can be changed when at -3 stab, so I'd wait until I was at low stab anyway then take all the hits for switching governments.
    Then you are just going to leave yourself vulnerable for some extended periods of time especially with the stab cost modifier.

    And of course, it also defeats your point about the Roman Empire/Roman Republic being an OP reward since you are now preaching about switching out of the Roman government types to get to absolute monarchy.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by ywhtptgtfo View Post
    Then you are just going to leave yourself vulnerable for some extended periods of time especially with the stab cost modifier.

    And of course, it also defeats your point about the Roman Empire/Roman Republic being an OP reward since you are now preaching about switching out of the Roman government types to get to absolute monarchy.
    You are just arguing for arguments sake now. What's the point in disagreeing with me on the pros and cons of discipline, if you think it's so terrible then feel free not to form the Roman Empire.

    PS Please read Pewt's post
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  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pewt View Post
    8% discipline is a huge advantage.
    Well I certainly hope that's the case in 7.4 because last time I played D&T, I was getting mauled by Muslims and Asians despite having a 40% edge in discipline (as well as tech, general, terrain, etc).

    Quote Originally Posted by lukew View Post
    You are just arguing for arguments sake now. What's the point in disagreeing with me on the pros and cons of discipline, if you think it's so terrible then feel free not to form the Roman Empire.
    Clearly, I am not. You started off by telling me the Roman forms of government were very strong and then now you are telling me you'd probably switch out of them anyway... What am I supposed to interpret?

    But of course, I respect Pewt's opinion and would give that due weight.

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pewt View Post
    8% discipline is a huge advantage. People don't use absolute monarchy just because the penalty (way less forcelimit) is not really worth it, but in every other case people get all the discipline they can. PMR's 20% discipline is borderline gamebreaking.

    In addition, unless luke has an event which removes Roman Military Reforms when you switch governments (don't know if he does), then you can switch to a more regular form of government after picking it.

    Obviously it's a little weaker than vanilla thanks to Quality being twice as strong, but it's still good. There's a reason everybody stacks discipline in MP.
    Ywhtptgtfo please read the above ^
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  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by ywhtptgtfo View Post
    Well I certainly hope that's the case in 7.4 because last time I played D&T, I was getting mauled by Muslims and Asians despite having a 40% edge in discipline (as well as tech, general, terrain, etc).
    I can't see how you managed that unless they rolled only 9s and you rolled only 0s or unless you were against much better units or much higher teched opponents. In vanilla (which has much less drastic differences, and thus you'd expect such differences to be less pronounced), a die modifier of 6ish with no discipline or tech differences will often result in 5-10x casualties for the disadvantaged side. Similarly, a major tech difference (13 to 9 is an excellent example) can result in as many as 10:1 casualties all other things being equal. Either you were very unlucky, you vastly underestimated other advantages the AI units had, or you're exaggerating.

  13. #33
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    Either way, this thread is becoming increasingly pointless.

    Please address any more comments about the core system in this thread. I'd rather avoid duplicate threads, and it will make it easier for us to have these separate conversations.

    Feel free to post a separate thread about discipline Ywhtptgtfo.
    Last edited by lukew; 25-07-2012 at 02:24.
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  14. #34
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    Ugh, I don't think I was being remotely ridiculous with my questions, but it appears that someone's making a troll out of me regardless. Unbelievable.

    Anyway, I'll just stop talking. Go lock this thread if it stings your eyes.

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by ywhtptgtfo View Post
    Ugh, I don't think I was being remotely ridiculous with my questions, but it appears that someone's making a troll out of me regardless. Unbelievable.

    Anyway, I'll just stop talking. Go lock this thread if it stings your eyes.
    Jeez, I said to create a separate thread about the discipline question and to post in the core thread about the core issue. I'm not trying to stop you talking, just make sure we're discussing the right thing in the right place.
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  16. #36
    In my opinion the mod should be more historical. If it is possible to form the Roaman empire you should also gain cores on all provinces of the empire. The same with Byzantium, minimum cores should be South Balkan and whole Anatolia

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by lukew View Post
    I'm not trying to stop you talking, just make sure we're discussing the right thing in the right place.
    Sorry, that's not quite the feeling I am getting when you used the word "pointless" and the phrase "arguing for arguments sake". I certainly don't feel what I said is "pointless" or that I was "arguing for arguments sake". Make no mistake, I am not taking offense but rather taking cues on when to exit a conversation before the tomatoes start flying.

    Quote Originally Posted by SirWitan View Post
    In my opinion the mod should be more historical. If it is possible to form the Roaman empire you should also gain cores on all provinces of the empire. The same with Byzantium, minimum cores should be South Balkan and whole Anatolia
    Kind of my sentiment too. And on an unrelated point, it's very strange that Roman military technology/tactics would rank high in the Renaissance era. The same goes for Roman government types. By the time of the Enlightenment, Europeans should've greatly surpassed the Romans in every aspect.

  18. #38
    It is true that historical the romans in 1400 were very old school but in fact they had a lot of high technology. The Renaissance was startet by knowledge of the Arabs and Innovation but mostly after the fall of Constantinopolis. The late Romans in game had a lot of technology stuff and werent technologically backward in great case.

  19. #39
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    I'll add the requirement for the Roman Empire to have a modernised military to enact the reforms - to make them more realistic.

    PS Keeping this thread open to talk about the roman empire, please talk about other stuff in the appropriate threads
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  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirWitan View Post
    It is true that historical the romans in 1400 were very old school but in fact they had a lot of high technology. The Renaissance was startet by knowledge of the Arabs and Innovation but mostly after the fall of Constantinopolis. The late Romans in game had a lot of technology stuff and werent technologically backward in great case.
    High technology compared to...?

    Quote Originally Posted by lukew View Post
    I'll add the requirement for the Roman Empire to have a modernised military to enact the reforms - to make them more realistic.

    PS Keeping this thread open to talk about the roman empire, please talk about other stuff in the appropriate threads
    Oh please. This thread has always been about the Roman Empire in one form or another. There was no derailing.

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