Forming Germany

[Noctus]

On that basis, there should be a war with Denmark and Austria. Basically, Germany declared three wars to form Germany. Don't remember the goal of the one againts Austria, but the goals of the others were getting Holstein and of Alsace.

Primarily it was to get enough Prestige to impress the smaller states into accepting prussian overlordship.

[SirkTheMonkey]

Primarily it was to get enough Prestige to impress the smaller states into accepting prussian overlordship.

This sounds like a mechanic involving spheres of influence and whatnot but I imagine that could get really heavy really quick.

[Malicite]

That is also still on the subject of how Germany did form. Not how it could form in different ways if history takes another path. Particularly if none of those countries exist at that time to go to war with.

[gigau]

I think religion should be a major factor in forming both a united HRE and of a German nation.

I have noticed in recent games that a large number of electors become Protestant, resulting in a Protestant Emperor. This should never happen, since a Catholic Emperor should force a non-Catholic Elector to either convert back or relinquish their elector status.

If this were to happen, then you could make the distinction between:
1: a Protestant Germany forming in opposition to the Emperor, and
2: a Catholic unified HRE formed by the Emperor.

I like this.

[Malicite]

But why wouldn't say a converted Sunni Germany form? People would still consider themselves of the German group wouldn't they?

[SirkTheMonkey]

But why wouldn't say a converted Sunni Germany form? People would still consider themselves of the German group wouldn't they?

I was going to make a flippant comment on the likelihood of that happening but a more serious thought dawned on me: what if the Hussites succeed and expand across central Europe (since 5.4 has been dangling that tantalisingly in the changelog for quite some time)? Would the 'Protestant' method of Germany creation apply to anyone who isn't Catholic/HRE?

[Count deMonet]

I was going to make a flippant comment on the likelihood of that happening but a more serious thought dawned on me: what if the Hussites succeed and expand across central Europe (since 5.4 has been dangling that tantalisingly in the changelog for quite some time)? Would the 'Protestant' method of Germany creation apply to anyone who isn't Catholic/HRE?

This was what I was thinking.

I just used Protestant as an example since it is the most likely and most historical, but it would hold for any non-catholic Germany forming.

Catholic > Forms HRE

Non-Catholic > Forms Germany

[Malicite]

I guess I'm still stuck on why this is a religious issue. Germany is a cultural union of the German peoples. The HRE is not all German peoples though so why would the formation of a unified German state necessarily remove the HRE from existence? Even with the argument that the HRE was started as a German thing it has expanded to include others who in all likelihood would still like to remain in the warm embrace of the empire. Perhaps bolstered by the strength of a unified Germany. I perhaps can see the formation of Germany removing that country from the HRE though as they would feel it unnecessary to be part of such an alliance anymore. Which of course brings it back to the issue of whoever forms Germany is most likely already the Emperor.

[Count deMonet]

I wasn't saying that forming Germany would de facto dissolve the HRE, just that a Catholic German Monarch would continue to want to unite whole Empire, while a non-Catholic German would be ineligible to become Emperor, therefore needing an alternative cultural union state "Germany".

Basically, the HRE, with its origins entwined with Rome, should always be a Catholic state. The checks and balances of the Emperor and Electors ensuring it remains that way.
The Emperor would replace Electors who convert with faithful ones or force their conformance. The Catholic Electors would not vote for a heretic Emperor.

Under this system, there would never be a case where the ruler forming Germany would be Emperor, since the Emperor must be Catholic, and Germany can't be.

Austria, Bohemia, the Low Countries and the various Italian states(along with any other states that had joined) would then have to choose whether to remain a weakened HRE after Germany forms, or go off on their own.

This would result in the awesome possibility of a Europe with both a Germany and a Unified(Italian/Austrian) HRE that would vie for control over Central Europe.

[Noctus]

The Emperor would replace Electors who convert with faithful ones or force their conformance. The Catholic Electors would not vote for a heretic Emperor.

Under this system, there would never be a case where the ruler forming Germany would be Emperor, since the Emperor must be Catholic, and Germany can't be.

Historically there were protestant Electors, and they played the political game hard as anybody. For example the Electorate of Saxony went protestant and stayed Electorate till the end of the HRE.

Two days later, Ferdinand II was elected as Holy Roman Emperor. Frederick was the only elector who voted against Ferdinand; even the Protestant electors, John George I, Elector of Saxony, and John Sigismund, Elector of Brandenburg, voted for Ferdinand.

It should not be chained to a religious question. Religion played a part, but it was more of a two big, rival german states were struggling for the dominance of central Europe. And as there can be only one Emperor, the other went a different route to get more power. And then the whole thing got dissolved by Napoleon before a result was politiced/agreed/fought for.

[HelmuthM]

Germany has so many provinces that you will have the "Realm Duress" penalty no matter what you do. Should this mechanic be changed somehow?

Many German sub-cultures don't get an "accepted culture" status. They should all be accepted.

[sprites]

Maybe this is off limits as it was after the dissolution of the empire , but you could have something like the rhine confederation?

[ODaly]

Call me crazy, but why not scrap the idea of forming Germany? It's been illustrated in discussion how delicate it is to make a distinction between a strong German power choosing to form HRE or Germany, as well as how tricky it could be handling a co-existing Germany and HRE.

I say just leave the HRE decision in place for any dominant German/Imperial power, and let Prussia stand as the separate German unification. It's plenty big enough already.

EDIT: Not to mention that until the Revolutionary/Victorian era, nations were formed along cultural lines rather than the idea of a unified nation-state. Wouldn't the "German" peoples still see themselves as different cultures unlike more homogeneous nations like France?

Re-EDIT: Not that I think the game would be objectively better with Germany removed, but if the decision is going to remain it will never be a "perfect" decision. So maybe we're worrying too much about it?

[Tallfellow]

Also the idea of a unified Germany didn't happen until later. around the 1800's (if i´m remembering correctly), so personally i wouldn't have any problem with removing the ability to form Germany.

Would it be possible to maybe disable to decision until 1750 or isn't that possible? Because then around that time you would be able to form it, but it would mean you would have to have enough provinces, and it's ofcourse possible at that time, but then again, it's less likely that you'd want to form Germany at that point, because you've had plenty of time to expand and also you'd be able to form other countries before that. So maybe delaying the formation would be a good idea.

[NorwayBernd]

Would it be possible to maybe disable to decision until 1750 or isn't that possible?

Yes, it's completely possible. Simply adding "year = 1750" to the potential or allow section would do the trick.

[HelmuthM]

EDIT: Not to mention that until the Revolutionary/Victorian era, nations were formed along cultural lines rather than the idea of a unified nation-state. Wouldn't the "German" peoples still see themselves as different cultures unlike more homogeneous nations like France?

How are Bavarians and Prussians culturally more distant from each other than Parisians and Bretons?

German national feeling was not unknown in the 17th century. After all, the state was called "The Holy Roman Empire of the German nation".

Great Britain was unified despite major cultural differences between the English, the Scots and the Welsh, and the people on the British Isles hardly clamored for unification.

[ODaly]

German national feeling was not unknown in the 17th century. After all, the state was called "The Holy Roman Empire of the German nation".

Which is why in my post I suggested leaving in the HRE decision "for any dominant German/Imperial nation." I think the problem is stemming from trying to solve the historical plausibility problems of having both the HRE and Germany being able to form. Was the German identity you refer to really that independent from the HRE?

EDIT: Like Tallfellow suggested, perhaps linking the formation of a separate Germany to a gov't tech level required for the Revolution NI (and maybe or maybe not requiring it be taken)?

[gigau]

Well, from what i know, German "nationalism" allowing for the formation of Germany happened with the Napoleonic Wars. And historically, Germany was formed only once the HRE was dismantled. So, let's have the HRE being formed by the Emperor, as currently set-up. Once HRE is dismantled, and HRE is not formable anymore, then the decision to form Germany kicks in.

[HelmuthM]

Well, from what i know, German "nationalism" allowing for the formation of Germany happened with the Napoleonic Wars. And historically, Germany was formed only once the HRE was dismantled. So, let's have the HRE being formed by the Emperor, as currently set-up. Once HRE is dismantled, and HRE is not formable anymore, then the decision to form Germany kicks in.

If you make HRE states lose their electorship when vassalized, it will be impossible to dismantle the HRE. That was in the patch notes.
https://sites.google.com/site/eu3mei...ogs/5-meiou-td

[Sofistication]

You can dismantle the HRE without vassalizing the electors by occupying their capitals. I like it because this mean a war against multiple states becomes necessary to form Germany (which makes it that much harder because at the moment it's way to easy to form for the amount of power you get from forming Germany, and I feel like simply upping the territory requirements doesn't make it hard enough, though it is a step in the right direction)