+ Reply to Thread
Results 1 to 10 of 10

Thread: historic allied divisions in france

  1. #1
    Field Marshal misterbean's Avatar
    Arsenal of DemocracyHearts of Iron 2: ArmageddonCrusader Kings IIDarkest HourEuropa Universalis: Chronicles
    For the MotherlandHearts of Iron IIIHOI3: Their Finest HourIron CrossMarch of the Eagles
    Semper FiVictoria 2Victoria II: A House DividedVictoria II: Heart of Darkness500k club

    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    belgium
    Posts
    5,454

    historic allied divisions in france

    I've been looking all over the internet, but I can't seem to find the answer.

    what was the total number of allied divisions in France in 1944, after the landing of the US 7th Army? I'm looking specifically to how many inf, mot/mech, arm in total.

    ***rant on***it is quite frustrating, really. I mean, it is quite possibly the only just war the Allies ever fought. I don't even have to blink to find the German army composition, down to the last f**ing battalion, but the guys that fought and died to free us all? no, sir. not interested. ***rant off***

    sorry. just had to get it out of my system.
    anyway, a link or a complete answer would be highly appreciated.
    thank you.
    Last edited by misterbean; 19-07-2012 at 17:48.
    Germany Tutorial, Take Two: http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/...2#post13243122 or find it in the Major Threads sticky.
    Tutorial AAR in pdf form available on Gamefront, courtesy of Davy: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B7H...it?usp=sharing
    Honoured by USKnight for the above tutorial here: http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/...1#post14404907
    Current EU IV AAR: La Douce France http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/...1#post17163635 Completed!

  2. #2
    Private justleroy's Avatar
    Crusader Kings IIEU3 CompleteDivine WindFor the MotherlandHearts of Iron III
    Heir to the ThroneVictoria: RevolutionsSemper FiVictoria 2Victoria II: A House Divided

    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    United States of Texas
    Posts
    22
    Here's a link to the BEF OOB for 1939 - 1940 (Wikipedia). This may even be better, the Order of Battle for the Battle of France, also found on Wikipedia. This one covers both Axis and Allied OOBs in May 1940.

  3. #3
    Field Marshal misterbean's Avatar
    Arsenal of DemocracyHearts of Iron 2: ArmageddonCrusader Kings IIDarkest HourEuropa Universalis: Chronicles
    For the MotherlandHearts of Iron IIIHOI3: Their Finest HourIron CrossMarch of the Eagles
    Semper FiVictoria 2Victoria II: A House DividedVictoria II: Heart of Darkness500k club

    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    belgium
    Posts
    5,454
    Quote Originally Posted by justleroy View Post
    Here's a link to the BEF OOB for 1939 - 1940 (Wikipedia). This may even be better, the Order of Battle for the Battle of France, also found on Wikipedia. This one covers both Axis and Allied OOBs in May 1940.
    sorry, my mistake. I should have been more spcific. I'm lookng for the Allied armies in France after the landing of the US 7th Army in southern France, in 1944.

    thank you for the quick response.
    I have edited the OP.
    Germany Tutorial, Take Two: http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/...2#post13243122 or find it in the Major Threads sticky.
    Tutorial AAR in pdf form available on Gamefront, courtesy of Davy: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B7H...it?usp=sharing
    Honoured by USKnight for the above tutorial here: http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/...1#post14404907
    Current EU IV AAR: La Douce France http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/...1#post17163635 Completed!

  4. #4
    yea its kinda odd how there seems to be a fascination with german army make up right from the start of the war and much less the soviets or allies , lets face it germany had an evil goverment and the guys who fought them deserve more respect .

  5. #5
    It depends if you want exact numbers for a scientific purpose or approximate numbers for some discussion.

    If approximate numbers are enough, then check Operation Dragoon, 15 August 1944 (Wiki) for the Southern Army OOB. 1944 scenario has good Allied OOB at the beginning of Operation Cobra, 25 July 1944. That leaves you with a 3 week gap. I would add to OOB some divisions stationed in England. You can also check British and American divisions (Wiki). There is there more detailed information where the divisions were stationed at any time.

  6. #6
    Field Marshal misterbean's Avatar
    Arsenal of DemocracyHearts of Iron 2: ArmageddonCrusader Kings IIDarkest HourEuropa Universalis: Chronicles
    For the MotherlandHearts of Iron IIIHOI3: Their Finest HourIron CrossMarch of the Eagles
    Semper FiVictoria 2Victoria II: A House DividedVictoria II: Heart of Darkness500k club

    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    belgium
    Posts
    5,454
    Quote Originally Posted by mnplastic View Post
    It depends if you want exact numbers for a scientific purpose or approximate numbers for some discussion.

    If approximate numbers are enough, then check Operation Dragoon, 15 August 1944 (Wiki) for the Southern Army OOB. 1944 scenario has good Allied OOB at the beginning of Operation Cobra, 25 July 1944. That leaves you with a 3 week gap. I would add to OOB some divisions stationed in England. You can also check British and American divisions (Wiki). There is there more detailed information where the divisions were stationed at any time.
    aproximate numbers are enough. I managed to piece some of it together, but finding which units, listed as "infantry", are actually in-game mot and which ones were mech by 1944, that's the rub. take the US 1st infantry Division, for instance. from my research, I think they were mechanised. it is very rare to find them listing "armoured infantry" regiment by name in their composition.

    this is going to take a while to piece it together properly. since this forum holds a rare number of WWII-experts (some of which might have actually served in later versions of the very divs I'm looking for), I thought to speed things up a little.

    the US had 48 "infantry" divisions (not sure how many of which type) in Europe by march/april 1945 and 16 arm. the British, in 1944, had, as far as I can tell, 2 airborne, 4 infantry, 2 mot, 5 arm.
    Canadians had 3 inf and 2 armour brigades (arm/mot).
    Belgium had 1 mot/ac/motorised art (Spart in game) (Brigade Piron) (yeah! )
    Poles had 1 Harm I think (the Polish 1st armoured division drove Churchill tanks. those are Harm, right?). possibly one inf.
    not sure about South Africa, Australia, New Zealand, France (at least 1 arm there), Greece, Denmark, Norway, Netherlands,...

    you starting to see my problem, here?
    Germany Tutorial, Take Two: http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/...2#post13243122 or find it in the Major Threads sticky.
    Tutorial AAR in pdf form available on Gamefront, courtesy of Davy: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B7H...it?usp=sharing
    Honoured by USKnight for the above tutorial here: http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/...1#post14404907
    Current EU IV AAR: La Douce France http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/...1#post17163635 Completed!

  7. #7
    Imperious Rex!
    Hearts of Iron III

    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Colorado
    Posts
    275
    I don"t remember the numbers myself, though I do remember that Patton's 3rd Army had more Divisions (20) than Monty's Army Group. See "Crusade in Europe" by Dwight D. Eisenhower, "War as I Knew It" by G. S. Patton and "History of the Second World War" by B. H. L. Hart.
    Had to be me. Someone else might have gotten it wrong.

  8. #8
    Field Marshal misterbean's Avatar
    Arsenal of DemocracyHearts of Iron 2: ArmageddonCrusader Kings IIDarkest HourEuropa Universalis: Chronicles
    For the MotherlandHearts of Iron IIIHOI3: Their Finest HourIron CrossMarch of the Eagles
    Semper FiVictoria 2Victoria II: A House DividedVictoria II: Heart of Darkness500k club

    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    belgium
    Posts
    5,454
    Quote Originally Posted by Shootist View Post
    I don"t remember the numbers myself, though I do remember that Patton's 3rd Army had more Divisions (20) than Monty's Army Group. See "Crusade in Europe" by Dwight D. Eisenhower, "War as I Knew It" by G. S. Patton and "History of the Second World War" by B. H. L. Hart.
    thanks. I'm going to look for those books. especially the Eisenhower book...written by, at that point in time, the most powerful military leader in history...seems very interesting.
    Germany Tutorial, Take Two: http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/...2#post13243122 or find it in the Major Threads sticky.
    Tutorial AAR in pdf form available on Gamefront, courtesy of Davy: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B7H...it?usp=sharing
    Honoured by USKnight for the above tutorial here: http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/...1#post14404907
    Current EU IV AAR: La Douce France http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/...1#post17163635 Completed!

  9. #9
    Liberté, egalité, fraternité StephenT's Avatar
    Cities in MotionDeus VultDivine WindFor the MotherlandHearts of Iron III
    Heir to the ThroneEuropa Universalis III: In NomineMajesty II CollectionMarch of the EaglesEU3 Napoleon's Ambition
    Victoria: RevolutionsEuropa Universalis: RomeSemper FiSengokuVictoria 2
    Victoria II: A House DividedVictoria II: Heart of DarknessRome: Vae VictisMount & Blade: WarbandMount & Blade: With Fire and Sword
    Pride of NationsCK2: Holy KnightEU3 Collectors Edition500k clubEuropa Universalis IV: Pre-order

    Join Date
    Mar 2001
    Location
    London, England
    Posts
    8,288
    Quote Originally Posted by misterbean View Post
    finding which units, listed as "infantry", are actually in-game mot and which ones were mech by 1944, that's the rub. take the US 1st infantry Division, for instance. from my research, I think they were mechanised. it is very rare to find them listing "armoured infantry" regiment by name in their composition.
    Well, that is of course because neither the British nor the US Army had any 'motorised' or 'mechanised' divisions as such; they just called them all plain 'infantry'.

    However, a standard British infantry division in 1944 had 3830 motor vehicles integral to its organisation - compare that to a German infantry division of the same year with only 783 motor vehicles (and 4656 horses), or even a Panzergrenadier division with 3106 motor vehicles. By that reckoning, every British infantry division should count as at least motorised. However, you have to make the judgement case-by-case by comparing the type of equipment each formation used; you can't just look down a list of divisions and count off how many are motorised, how many are mechanised, and how many are straight-leg like you can with the German or Soviet army.



    On 31 August 1944 there were the following Allied divisions in France (source: Ellis, WW2 Databook):

    Armoured:

    US:
    2nd Armored Division
    3rd Armored Division
    4th Armored Division
    5th Armored Division
    6th Armored Division
    7th Armored Division

    British:
    Guards Armoured Division
    7th Armoured Division
    11th Armoured Division
    79th Armoured Division

    Other:
    4th Canadian Armoured Division
    1st Polish Armoured Division
    2nd French Armoured Division

    Plus six independent armoured brigades - note: these had the same number of tanks as an armoured division, but without the infantry support (they were normally assigned to infantry units on an ad-hoc basis as needed.) All are British unless noted.
    4th Armoured Brigade
    8th Armoured Brigade
    6th Guards Tank Brigade
    34th Army Tank Brigade
    2nd Canadian Armoured Brigade
    Czech Independent Armoured Brigade

    Total: 13 divisions + 6 brigades


    Infantry

    US:
    1st Division
    2nd Division
    3rd Division
    4th Division
    5th Division
    8th Division
    9th Division
    28th Division
    29th Division
    30th Division
    35th Division
    36th Division
    45th Division
    79th Division
    80th Division
    83th Division
    90th Division

    British:
    3rd Division
    15th Division
    43rd Division
    49th Division
    50th Division
    51st Division
    53rd Division
    59th Division

    Other:
    2nd Canadian Division
    3rd Canadian Division
    1st French Motorised Division
    2nd Moroccan Division
    3rd Algerian Division
    4th Moroccan Mountain Division
    1st Special Service Force

  10. #10
    Aedile Demi Moderator Tamerlan's Avatar
    Crusader Kings IIDeus VultEuropa Universalis: ChroniclesCK2: Holy KnightHoi 2 Beta
    EU3 Collectors Edition500k clubEuropa Universalis IV

    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Lutetia
    Posts
    4,298
    Quote Originally Posted by misterbean View Post
    France (at least 1 arm there), Greece, Denmark, Norway, Netherlands,...

    you starting to see my problem, here?
    On the 16th of August, I think there were at least 3 French divisions in provence (1st Armoured, general du Vigier, 1st DFL, general Brosset and 3rd DIA, general Monsabert) and another one in normandy (2nd armoured indeed, general Leclerc). Possibly more but I am not sure, I think quite a few others arrived before september / october (9th DIC one week later, general Magnan+Marocan groups). About 77,000 troops before the start of september (not taking into account the resistance fighters).
    Last edited by Tamerlan; 21-07-2012 at 12:23.

+ Reply to Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts