Questions/Suggestions

[Gwax23]

Just downloaded 3.08 this is a great mod.

Few questions/Suggestions. Mostly relating to Historical/realism issue.

1- Shouldnt "British" be split into Welsh English Scottish and even cornish? it makes sense they still have some sense of separate identity even today more so in 1836. You split Occitan from French even though its more of a language less of a separate ethnic group.

2- That brings me to my next point:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Oc...blanck_map.PNG

Thats the map of occitan language in France. The game has the Savoy provinces in Sardinia Piedmont majority Occitan even though its not spoken there now or ever. Instead it should be split roughly 50/50 between French and North Italian pops.

3- There are south Italian pops in Odessa Ukraine which dont make sense there. Should probably be removed. North italian pops cshould be added to Corfu to represent the Italian presence on the island though.

4- Why does greece have claims on modern greece and only Macedonia and not the entire area encompasses in the Megali idea?

5- Shouldnt Serbia have more cores in Bosnia/on Montenegero?

6- Should Luxembourg be in Rhineland? Or maybe its own region to make it easier to incorporate in a greater Germany?

7- Galicia in Spain should probably be made smaller to actually represent the borders of Galicia and then Portugal should have cores on it.

8 - Since Catalan is a separate ethnic group in game maybe "Spanish" should be subdivided: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationa...lisms_of_Spain

Maybe have instead of spanish: Andalusian, Aragonese, Galician, and Asturian.

9 - Should be small minorities of Albanians in southern Italy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arb%C3%ABresh%C3%AB_people

Maybe even smaller greek pops: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Griko_people
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greeks_in_Italy

10 - The province of Senj should probably be in the Dalmatian Region and Kotor should be in the Montenegrin region for better borders and realism.

11- Uskudar should be in the Bursa region not in Thrace.

12 - Sao Miguel Lajaes and Desterro should be split from parana and made into a new Santa Catarina region to better represent Rio Grande Do Sols claims there.

[Naselus]

1- Shouldnt "British" be split into Welsh English Scottish and even cornish? it makes sense they still have some sense of separate identity even today more so in 1836. You split Occitan from French even though its more of a language less of a separate ethnic group.

Technically yes, but it's not worth the extra overhead. Nationalism in Scotland, Wales etc was pretty much non-existent until the very end of the period anyway, and it's really not worth having the extra POPs that would be generated.

2- That brings me to my next point:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Oc...blanck_map.PNG

Thats the map of occitan language in France. The game has the Savoy provinces in Sardinia Piedmont majority Occitan even though its not spoken there now or ever. Instead it should be split roughly 50/50 between French and North Italian pops.

Occitan was mostly added to nerf French mobilization totals, rather than for historical accuracy.

3- There are south Italian pops in Odessa Ukraine which dont make sense there. Should probably be removed. North italian pops cshould be added to Corfu to represent the Italian presence on the island though.

I think they're from Vanilla, actually, and represent the descendants of Genoese colonists.

4- Why does greece have claims on modern greece and only Macedonia and not the entire area encompasses in the Megali idea?

It does if you pass the Megali Idea, doesn't it?

5- Shouldnt Serbia have more cores in Bosnia/on Montenegero?

Not really, no; it'd be fairly anachronistic.

6- Should Luxembourg be in Rhineland? Or maybe its own region to make it easier to incorporate in a greater Germany?

Tough one to call, tbh. Luxembourg should probably be a region apart, considering it's still a separate country today.

7- Galicia in Spain should probably be made smaller to actually represent the borders of Galicia and then Portugal should have cores on it.

Nah.

8 - Since Catalan is a separate ethnic group in game maybe "Spanish" should be subdivided: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationa...lisms_of_Spain

Again, probably not worth the overhead. The more ways we subdivide POPs, the slower the game goes... and each POP we form will clone itself into a separate Spanish POP when it begins assimilating. Adding cultures (and doubly so religions) is kind of a utility thing which only gets used when something else justifies it, rather than history itself.

9 - Should be small minorities of Albanians in southern Italy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arb%C3%ABresh%C3%AB_people

Might be worth swapping a farmer POP or two, but again, see above.

10 - The province of Senj should probably be in the Dalmatian Region and Kotor should be in the Montenegrin region for better borders and realism.

Possibly; depends on the size that that makes the regions afterwards. For balance, it's better if most regions are 4 or 5 provinces; 6 or 3 is less than ideal (the UK in particular is riddled with states that aren't really big enough, but that does help prevent it industrializing too far)

11- Uskudar should be in the Bursa region not in Thrace.

Would that not make Thrace just 2 provinces? See above

12 - Sao Miguel Lajaes and Desterro should be split from parana and made into a new Santa Catarina region to better represent Rio Grande Do Sols claims there.

Again, 2 provinces is too small for a state.

[Rylock]

Technically yes, but it's not worth the extra overhead. Nationalism in Scotland, Wales etc was pretty much non-existent until the very end of the period anyway, and it's really not worth having the extra POPs that would be generated.

I don't mind the idea of Scottish and Welsh pops myself, but yeah-- I'm not sure there's much benefit to it. It would, in the end, be a nerf to the UK when it probably doesn't really need one.

Tough one to call, tbh. Luxembourg should probably be a region apart, considering it's still a separate country today.

Luxembourg could indeed be a separate region. Technically it should include Arlon, but that would likely mean a split state for most of the game. It could also be part of the Rheinland region, though technically I think Maastricht would be better suited for that.

Possibly; depends on the size that that makes the regions afterwards. For balance, it's better if most regions are 4 or 5 provinces; 6 or 3 is less than ideal (the UK in particular is riddled with states that aren't really big enough, but that does help prevent it industrializing too far)

Croatia is probably divided that way due to the Kingdom of Croatia, which included Senj-- everything from Zadar downwards was considered Dalmatia. Moving Senj into Dalmatia would mean that Italy would gain the entire Yugoslavian coast with its irredentist decision (which doesn't match its WW2 claims, but I've no idea if that's unreasonable). Moving Kotor into the Montenegro region does help in the off chance that Montenegro tries to reclaim its cores... but also splits the Dalmatia region and makes it likely that someone taking Dalmatia (as Italy often will) leaves a little one-province piece of Austria in the south.

Would that not make Thrace just 2 provinces? See above

No, Thrace already has four provinces in Europe. I actually support this one, as Uskudar is the sole province on the other side of the Bosphorous-- it always looks a bit weird. I actually think the Turkish regions could stand some re-organizing in general.

Again, 2 provinces is too small for a state.

This one actually should be okay-- it's 3 provinces, not 2. And Santa Catalina was something I'd considered putting in previously... precisely because of the Rio Grande claims.

[Gwax23]

Okay with the Kotor thing that makes sense didnt think of it that way and the chances montenegro gaining provinces in game is slim to none. As for Senj Im pretty sure it was included in Italian claims for the region. Santa Catalina is 3 provinces as Rylock pointed out so maybe a region?

I honestly think Scottish and Welsh would be great to add. Again historically makes more sense than Picard or occitan. Other mods have done it without major slow downs. I mean Plenty of other in game cultures have less of a need/reason to be there. Texan Maltese Bosnian etc come to mind.

As for the Italian pops in odessa its actually a mess up that carried over from VIP mod which V2 used to base their pop make ups off of.

Genoa never owned odessa it had small tradining colonies in the Crimea made up mostly of Greeks and locals no Italian immigration. Even if there was it would of lasted from the 13th century and it would be North Italian not South Italian and it would not make up 5% plus of the population. Its a mistake thats been carried over a few versions.

As for Occitain I understand its meant to be a nerf on France it could still do that though in a realistic way. Getting rid of occitain from Savoy and replacing it historically with North Italian pops would help.

On a seperate note another problem ive been noticing in my games is massive European Immigration to Liberia which is strange yet none to the United States most of it going to South American states that arent democracies (Brazil) and Liberia. Any reason for this or way to fix it?

[Rylock]

Okay with the Kotor thing that makes sense didnt think of it that way and the chances montenegro gaining provinces in game is slim to none. As for Senj Im pretty sure it was included in Italian claims for the region.

Keep in mind that Hungarian claims go to Senj as well, it's only outlet to the Mediterranean. Unless it loses that core, that means in order to retake Senj it would have to reclaim the entire Dalmatian coast.

As for Italy, this is the best map I can find for the irridentist claims during the era-- which do seem to skip over Senj. I'm not really sure.

As for Occitain I understand its meant to be a nerf on France it could still do that though in a realistic way. Getting rid of occitain from Savoy and replacing it historically with North Italian pops would help.

True. It's not as if Sardinia-Piedmont couldn't use the extra primary pops.

[Gwax23]

Fair enough. Historically your right and game play reasons its best kept as is.

You should really consider the Splitting british thing though imho.

What about the Odessa pops possibility for those to be fixed?

Also heres a link for the Corfu Italians I mentioned earlier: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corfiot_Italians

Also an area that bugs me is Nice. Maybe it should join Corsica to form a new region. Both these provinces are areas that both france and Italy would fight over to control. As it is now Nice is part of Provence but once it switches hands to the french in order to get it back you have to take all of Provence which is silly. By joining Corsica is solves the problem of being a one province region and helps keep realistic borders.

Also the decision of Cavours diplomacy shouldnt remove cores from Savoy and Nice as they where still claimed after the territories where ceded.

[Rylock]

For Naselus, an option for a Turkish reorganization:



That offers the best options for cores and is a bit neater, as well as being slightly more historical.

Another option is this:



Which isn't historical at all, but neater still.

[Hibernian]

@ Rylock, the top map looks good to me, though what about Antioch? Where would it go, in with Syria? It is a part of Modern Turkey, but of course it could have gone either way.

Gwax23 is right about the Italians around the Med, but I think you should probably still keep the Occitan POPs in the Alps, since I think they're meant to Franco-Provençal speakers. It's a language separate from Occitan and Northern French, but you might as well lump it in with Occitan, unless you want to create another culture for it.

BTW, did you know that Piedmontese (the main language spoken in Sardinia–Piedmont at this time) is actually closely related to Occitan, and is more related to French then it is to Italian! Interesting, eh?

[Rylock]

@ Rylock, the top map looks good to me, though what about Antioch? Where would it go, in with Syria? It is a part of Modern Turkey, but of course it could have gone either way.

It's currently part of the Aleppo region. A core is retained there and it's not released when the country is dismantled... I suppose it could be part of Adana, as it's far more likely that Turkey would be trying to retake it than Syria doing the reverse. It wasn't part of the Adana vilayet, though.

[Gwax23]

@ Rylock, the top map looks good to me, though what about Antioch? Where would it go, in with Syria? It is a part of Modern Turkey, but of course it could have gone either way.

Gwax23 is right about the Italians around the Med, but I think you should probably still keep the Occitan POPs in the Alps, since I think they're meant to Franco-Provençal speakers. It's a language separate from Occitan and Northern French, but you might as well lump it in with Occitan, unless you want to create another culture for it.

BTW, did you know that Piedmontese (the main language spoken in Sardinia–Piedmont at this time) is actually closely related to Occitan, and is more related to French then it is to Italian! Interesting, eh?

All true but there needs to be some Italian Presence in Savoy.

Also another question should Belgium and the Netherlands start out in a war with each other? I started playing the old VIP for vicky again and thats how it was set up there. This historical?

If anyone still has it on their computer the most recent version vip .4 should check it out. The ethnic composition was excellent they did a great job with it. Something PDM should try to immitate.

[Naselus]

Yes, the game technically starts in the very late stages of the Belgian war of independence; but it's probably not worth starting them off at war since no military action happened by 1836 - there was the ten day campaign waaaaaaaay back in 1831, and then not a lot happened til the Dutch belatedly accepted the Treaty of London eight years later. Since V2 doesn't have multiple categories of war (and we can't add them, I've tried), we'd end up with a hugely expensive conflict early on which is much less historical than what actually happened (kind of like the Russian war is Circassia).

Adding additional cultures is not going to happen simply because it's historically accurate. It would need to be a required nerf to the UK or some such, which it doesn't really need atm. Otherwise it's just adding overhead for little real reason - and even the historical accuracy is somewhat questionable, given that nationalism in the smaller countries of the UK didn't really exist at the time. Scottish nationalism only really appeared in the 1930s (and has never really been that powerful anyway; most SNP voters pick them because they're quite socialist, rather than their obsession with the little-cared-about independence question).

On the maps - first one's good enough for me, frankly. Leave Antioch as part of Syria, it historically always was and I doubt most people would have though of it as part of Turkey.

Let's keep out of the Balkans - the people livign there haven't decided what the correct borers are in the past 150 years, so I doubt we'll find a proper solution on an internet forum. Any changes that get made there will probably result in demands to change it back, complete with a plethora of wiki articles showing that in 814 Kotor was historically owned by the Albanian state washing machine company.

Sardinia can have North Italians instead; it could use the primary POPs and shouldn't really be nerfed in the process of hurting France.

[Rylock]

Sardinia can have North Italians instead; it could use the primary POPs and shouldn't really be nerfed in the process of hurting France.

I'm assuming you mean Savoy.

I'll make these changes as part of my next drop.

[Gwax23]

Sweet. On another note what about my idea of turning the one province region corsica into a 2 province region by adding Nice to it so the two provinces can be fought over by a future italian state and France without having to take or loose the entirety of the Provence region?

[FMekajiki]

Sweet. On another note what about my idea of turning the one province region corsica into a 2 province region by adding Nice to it so the two provinces can be fought over by a future italian state and France without having to take or loose the entirety of the Provence region?

Then you have the problem where you can't take Corsica without some part of the mainland, which is the entire reason it was made in to its own state to begin with. It makes sense as Italy(provided they would ever even do that), but not if you're trying to control the Mediterranean as literally any other power that doesn't want Nice.

[Connor Mulhern]

Croatia is probably divided that way due to the Kingdom of Croatia, which included Senj-- everything from Zadar downwards was considered Dalmatia. Moving Senj into Dalmatia would mean that Italy would gain the entire Yugoslavian coast with its irredentist decision (which doesn't match its WW2 claims, but I've no idea if that's unreasonable). Moving Kotor into the Montenegro region does help in the off chance that Montenegro tries to reclaim its cores... but also splits the Dalmatia region and makes it likely that someone taking Dalmatia (as Italy often will) leaves a little one-province piece of Austria in the south.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Re...enteItalia.jpg

WW1 gains=/= claims, they should be expanded tbh, but I dont know about changing regions

No, Thrace already has four provinces in Europe. I actually support this one, as Uskudar is the sole province on the other side of the Bosphorous-- it always looks a bit weird. I actually think the Turkish regions could stand some re-organizing in general.

Agreed, I think it should be something along these lines, with split states depending on the amount of states in the aprox region

http://sokrates.szm.com/turkey/image...ey_regions.png

This one actually should be okay-- it's 3 provinces, not 2. And Santa Catalina was something I'd considered putting in previously... precisely because of the Rio Grande claims.

I would just make rio grnade its own region, having it split between three states makes no sense tbh

Then you have the problem where you can't take Corsica without some part of the mainland, which is the entire reason it was made in to its own state to begin with. It makes sense as Italy(provided they would ever even do that), but not if you're trying to control the Mediterranean as literally any other power that doesn't want Nice.

It should be merged with sardinia TBH

[Rylock]

WW1 gains=/= claims, they should be expanded tbh, but I dont know about changing regions

I know WW1 gains don't equal claims, but neither do the maps of irridentist claims really agree with one another. Finding a map on Wikipedia isn't really proof of anything-- which is to say that mine is no better proof than yours. Either way, the Hungarian core there is still a problem if it suddenly ends up in Dalmatia.

I would just make rio grnade its own region, having it split between three states makes no sense tbh

Rio Grande do Sul is already its own region.

It should be merged with sardinia TBH

I agree. Not sure what to call such a region. Merging Corsica with one province on the mainland is not really an option, however.

[Gwax23]

If paradox would of made the game so you can get only your cores through the peace process then half this stuff involving regions wouldnt be a problem.

[Connor Mulhern]

I know WW1 gains don't equal claims, but neither do the maps of irridentist claims really agree with one another. Finding a map on Wikipedia isn't really proof of anything-- which is to say that mine is no better proof than yours. Either way, the Hungarian core there is still a problem if it suddenly ends up in Dalmatia.

The whole idea was to take the entire coast in that area, even if it was just a little sliver of land in some areas. Its just a debate of how far they would have driven in, which I would bet would be fairly far

I agree. Not sure what to call such a region. Merging Corsica with one province on the mainland is not really an option, however.

agree, just call is sardinia-corsica