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Thread: Too soon?

  1. #41
    First Lieutenant Andropov123's Avatar
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    I could care less about what the American government says or doesn't say.

    Ukraine's new president reversed the previous president's position on the Holdomor.

    http://en.rian.ru/exsoviet/20100427/158772431.html

    The previous president Yuschenko, who initiated the state recognition of the Holodomor as genocide, was and still is extremely unpopular and widely loathed in Ukraine.



    The majority of the country does not regard it as genocide. You really think you know more about the famine than the people whose families lived and died through it?

    A November survey by the Horshenin Institute revealed that 66 percent of Ukrainians believe that the famine was not genocide. Thirty-two percent believe it was, while two percent say the Holodomor didn’t happen at all.
    http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukra...flavour=mobile

  2. #42
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    Still my point is that you don't hear any reports of American mass killings in the cold war.

    Also are you an Eastern Ukrainian?

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scia52 View Post
    Still my point is that you don't hear any reports of American mass killings in the cold war.

    Also are you an Eastern Ukrainian?
    -The fact is marketing, PR, television, free press is mostly invent by the western country => so what wrong if they just do good what they already mastered?
    -Two or three month ago, just check news => Gaddafi, Libya everywhere, now what happened ? no news => now it's always about Syria
    -Search google with key word "my lai"
    => never hear American killing? => hear vietnam war?
    Last edited by strits1945; 31-07-2012 at 07:58.

  4. #44
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  5. #45
    Pan Celticist Demi Moderator RedRalphWiggum's Avatar

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    Conversation about the famine in the Ukrainian SSR is now over.

  6. #46
    Field Marshal Don_Quigleone's Avatar
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    In terms of what to call rebels, the easy solution is to just call all of them "rebels", "partisans" or "insurgents", and that would be easy to code.

    It would, however, be fun if rebels could get individual tags based on your relationship to them. So if the US supports the Taliban in a soviet invasion of Afghanistan, they'd see "Afghan Patriotic Freedom Fighters", while the soviets would see "Afghan reactionary terrorists".

    If the Soviets support the Vietcong, the VC might be called "Vietnamese Anti-Imperialist Revolutionaries", while the US would see "Vietnamese communist terrorists" or similar.

  7. #47
    Field Marshal Raph's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Don_Quigleone View Post
    In terms of what to call rebels, the easy solution is to just call all of them "rebels", "partisans" or "insurgents", and that would be easy to code.

    It would, however, be fun if rebels could get individual tags based on your relationship to them. So if the US supports the Taliban in a soviet invasion of Afghanistan, they'd see "Afghan Patriotic Freedom Fighters", while the soviets would see "Afghan reactionary terrorists".

    If the Soviets support the Vietcong, the VC might be called "Vietnamese Anti-Imperialist Revolutionaries", while the US would see "Vietnamese communist terrorists" or similar.
    So... pretty much what I wrote?
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  8. #48
    Field Marshal Don_Quigleone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raph View Post
    So... pretty much what I wrote?
    Pretty much. I think it needs to go a bit deeper, in that I don't think the Soviets should see their guys as "freedom fighters", they used different names.

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Don_Quigleone View Post
    Pretty much. I think it needs to go a bit deeper, in that I don't think the Soviets should see their guys as "freedom fighters", they used different names.
    Fair enough, names should be different on either side!
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  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Klyvare View Post
    I think there is no need to refrain from labelling organisations such as IRA as terrorists. If the organisation uses terror to get their idea across they are terrorists. I think its the direct opposite to controversial actually. To put a "kinder" label on these organisations would actually be whats offensive, disrespectful and against the objectivity that is a must for a political game.
    I totally agree. And for all of you out there that think the IRA is any different than those of the likes of the Taliban, let's not forget the assassination of Louis Mountbatten, or the unsuccessful attempts to assassinate Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher.

  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Bronq View Post
    Nelson Mandela was no by no means a Gandhi and as with so many of them, the Peace Prize given to Mandela was yet another example of a highly controversial award. So who knows, perhaps Taliban might one day win the Nobel Prize for their awesome and awe-inspiring contribution to Human Rights in Afghanistan.
    *Vomits*
    You are joking, right? Saying that the Taliban stood up for any type of human rights is just.... Maybe you should visit Afghanistan some time for yourself, the people there are still recovering.
    Nelson Mandela and Gandhi stood up for democracy, if you want to label them as terrorist, then go ahead.

  12. #52
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    Guys, if you want to have off-topic discussions about politics and history, I suggest you do it on the appropriate forum. Otherwise, a mod is going to lock this thread very soon.

    In reply to the OP: I don't see a problem. World War 2, with its huge casualties and genocides, is a much more emotional subject than the Cold War, and also quite recent. If games can be made about World War 2, then games can be made about the Cold War.

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Laskaris View Post
    Guys, if you want to have off-topic discussions about politics and history, I suggest you do it on the appropriate forum. Otherwise, a mod is going to lock this thread very soon.

    In reply to the OP: I don't see a problem. World War 2, with its huge casualties and genocides, is a much more emotional subject than the Cold War, and also quite recent. If games can be made about World War 2, then games can be made about the Cold War.
    Eh, sorry, you see something that's quiet close to you, and you kinda get thrown for a loop.
    I think there is a big difference between WW2 and the Cold War, many of the leaders of the Cold War are still alive, and for us Americans here on the forum, we know people that fought in Korea and Vietnam. People that now sit around thinking about how much their sacrifice was worth.
    Last edited by cnrstn; 02-08-2012 at 08:07.

  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by cnrstn View Post
    I think there is a big difference between WW2 and the Cold War, many of the leaders of the Cold War are still alive, and for us Americans here on the forum, we know people that fought in Korea and Vietnam. People that now sit around thinking about how much their sacrifice was worth.
    Many gamers on this forum have parents or grand-parents who fought in World War 2. Both of my grand-fathers did. One was killed, the other lost a leg and was crippled for life. So the personal connection with Woirld War 2 is still very real for a lot of people as well. And it was a much bigger war, involving many more people and nations, than Vietnam or Korea.

    I stand by my point that if World War 2 games are doable in terms of not being "too soon", then Cold War games should be doable as well.

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Laskaris View Post
    Many gamers on this forum have parents or grand-parents who fought in World War 2. Both of my grand-fathers did. One was killed, the other lost a leg and was crippled for life. So the personal connection with Woirld War 2 is still very real for a lot of people as well. And it was a much bigger war, involving many more people and nations, than Vietnam or Korea.

    I stand by my point that if World War 2 games are doable in terms of not being "too soon", then Cold War games should be doable as well.
    One of my grandfathers fought in Korea, and the other in Vietnam, and of my hobbies is visiting retirement homes. (So I'm a little bit strange) While your grandfathers fought for something that they believed in, my grandfathers, and a lot of older men I speak to today hate the the Cold War deeply, and the government. You have to remember how unpopular the Vietnamese war was here, how many good men died for what is now looked on today as nothing.
    That said, I'm glad that Paradox is making another Cold War game. Perhaps it will give me another perspective of my grandfather's lives past seeing their name on a wall.

  16. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by cnrstn View Post
    One of my grandfathers fought in Korea, and the other in Vietnam, and of my hobbies is visiting retirement homes. (So I'm a little bit strange) While your grandfathers fought for something that they believed in, my grandfathers, and a lot of older men I speak to today hate the the Cold War deeply, and the government. You have to remember how unpopular the Vietnamese war was here, how many good men died for what is now looked on today as nothing.
    That said, I'm glad that Paradox is making another Cold War game. Perhaps it will give me another perspective of my grandfather's lives past seeing their name on a wall.
    A shame, really... The same happened to the Russian soldiers who fought in Afghanistan. Korea was a draw, Vietnam and Afghanistan were a draw at best (from a superpower's point of view) - guerrilla wars are difficult to win with conventional means. That does nothing to downgrade the fact that it was a full-fledged war for those involved... And as such it should be remembered, with full honors to those who had to endure the hardships of those conflicts. I can understand that those wars are unpopular, and as such better forgotten. But to belittle the veterans involved because of it just saddens me...
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  17. #57

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hagar View Post
    A shame, really... The same happened to the Russian soldiers who fought in Afghanistan. Korea was a draw, Vietnam and Afghanistan were a draw at best (from a superpower's point of view) - guerrilla wars are difficult to win with conventional means. That does nothing to downgrade the fact that it was a full-fledged war for those involved... And as such it should be remembered, with full honors to those who had to endure the hardships of those conflicts. I can understand that those wars are unpopular, and as such better forgotten. But to belittle the veterans involved because of it just saddens me...
    You are kidding right? Sorry, I'm terrible at reading sarcasm through text.
    Events like Korea, Vietnam and Afganistan should be remembered BOLDLY! How will we change the future if we simply fall in line with our fault-ridden past? I don't belittle veterans, and the fact that you say I do, drives me up a wall! I don't think that the wars in Korea and Vietnam were waste, others may, but I sure as hell don't. I didn't post my opinion, but that of others to widen the your, and Laskaris' point of view. I completely agree with you, but the fact that you want to just move on is shocking! You practically contradict yourself. You want to remember the hardships of others (I DO!!!) but move on and forget the past?!?! (NOOOOOO!!!)

    Not sure how much more I have to say, I'm practically shaking.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cnrstn View Post
    You are kidding right? Sorry, I'm terrible at reading sarcasm through text.
    Events like Korea, Vietnam and Afganistan should be remembered BOLDLY! How will we change the future if we simply fall in line with our fault-ridden past? I don't belittle veterans, and the fact that you say I do, drives me up a wall! I don't think that the wars in Korea and Vietnam were waste, others may, but I sure as hell don't. I didn't post my opinion, but that of others to widen the your, and Laskaris' point of view. I completely agree with you, but the fact that you want to just move on is shocking! You practically contradict yourself. You want to remember the hardships of others (I DO!!!) but move on and forget the past?!?! (NOOOOOO!!!)

    Not sure how much more I have to say, I'm practically shaking.
    I must have misstated it somewhere, as the last thing I wanted to do is to make that statement, quite the contrary! It's a shame that the general public doesn't acknowledge the contributions all the Vets have made these last couple of decades. The outcome of the wars themselves do little to lessen the hardships and sacrifices made by those who had to fight them, and it's for the latter they should be proudly remembered and honored, rather than scoffed at! And I'm glad that you are one of those which actually do! I was talking in general rather than personally...
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  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by Hagar View Post
    I must have misstated it somewhere, as the last thing I wanted to do is to make that statement, quite the contrary! It's a shame that the general public doesn't acknowledge the contributions all the Vets have made these last couple of decades. The outcome of the wars themselves do little to lessen the hardships and sacrifices made by those who had to fight them, and it's for the latter they should be proudly remembered and honored, rather than scoffed at! And I'm glad that you are one of those which actually do! I was talking in general rather than personally...
    Sorry, I may have over-reacted..(I was kinda expecting you to reply with the classic 'u mad bro?')

  20. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by cnrstn View Post
    Sorry, I may have over-reacted..(I was kinda expecting you to reply with the classic 'u mad bro?')
    No need to apologize, this is a very personal and emotional matter to you! Just know that the last thing I wanted to do was to disrespect you, and I understand your feeling! Vietnam might be something distant for me, being a Dutchie, but many a relative of mine fought in the Dutch East Indies, which isn't exactly our finest hour... And those never got the recognition they deserved as well.
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