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Thread: APD 3.0.8 download/feedback (for AHD v2.31 only)

  1. #61
    Field Marshal Rylock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by theodorium View Post
    Prague is a 17x province!
    Do RGO sizes get bigger? I thought they were supposed to reduce in size as technology got better?

  2. #62
    Not mines. Mines get bigger. All the way.

  3. #63
    On Probation Straigthtsilver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moonstruck View Post
    Not mines. Mines get bigger. All the way.
    Well, it depends on the technology you research doesn't it? I was under the impression that the first column of the industry research tab (the various engines) DECREASES the size of provincial RGOs, while the mining and metallurgy column INCREASES RGO size (at least for mining ones).

  4. #64
    Well, yeah. But the Power ones give -2.5%, while Mining usually gives at least +20%. A single mining tech is enough to outweigh all the power ones, if I don't misrecall.

  5. #65
    Second Lieutenant theodorium's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rylock View Post
    Do RGO sizes get bigger? I thought they were supposed to reduce in size as technology got better?
    Max employees in a 1x province is 40k people. Prague (625) is a 15x province so in 1836 it has an RGO capacity of 600k.
    in 1836 there are 305,6k employees out of 600k max (51%) producing 120 iron (base output=150). If RGO was full, it would produce 240 iron.
    in 1859 there are 53,6k employees out of 780k max (7%) producing 100 iron (base output = 195). If RGO was full, it would produce 1250 iron.

    RGO size is reduced only in farms (first column of industry techs. Third column actually increases both base output (from 150 to 195) and maximum size (from 600k to 780k) in mines.

    Again, all this would be ok if Prague was maximum a 10x province, meaning that it would start with 306k employees out of 400k max

  6. #66
    Professional forum-troll ;) Yosiu's Avatar
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    Theodorium, you don't understand it.
    Maximum size of RGO affects unemplyment only if it has full employment.
    If your Prague province has 300 k employed out of 600 k slots possible, then getting tech which makes RGO bigger or smaller wouldn't affect it directly, it would be 300 k out of 580k slots possible.
    What makes difference is efficiency of RGO always going in line with RGO size modifiers. With new tech your efficiency rised, and the same 300k employers made like+50% of iron more. And while demand for iron didn't changed becouse of this invention, they need to fire some workers. But as i said, it don't have any connection to province size, except province is already 100% filled with RGO workers.

  7. #67
    Second Lieutenant theodorium's Avatar
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    Yosiu, I understand what you're saying and you are right; my point is this:
    -Prague starts 1836 with 370k labourers. From them only 305.6k are employed originally to produce 120 iron needed at start. So Prague starts with high unemplyment. Every booster or invention that increases RGO size therefore goes to waste.
    -in 1859 (relatively early in the game) it takes only 60k labourers to produce the same amount of iron the original 306k produced. That is FIVE times less people! This is way too huge of an improvement if you ask me, especially since it means that Prague has MASSIVE unemployment, because although the labourer pops have shrink from original 370k to 310k due to emmigration and demotion, they are still too many, as global demand is met when only 60k of them is working.

    Mind that Prague is an example here; all big iron and coal provinces have the same problem.
    Now imagine that game started with a negative modifier for coal, iron, grain and all the "problematic" items, so the initial 600k slots were reduced to 350k. Imagine a second negative modifier that would allow those 350k to produce only 100 iron initially (now, 307k produce 120). Given, as you say and you are right that all these don't affect demand, the RGO would actually hire labourers so to reach the production of 120 iron. given time, the new techs would "eat" from that negative modifier slowly (from -55% rgo size to -40%, -20% 0% and so on). The numbers are from the top of my head, of cource, playtesting will reveal the necesary figures.
    The point is that at start most items that are "not in high demand" must have FULL EMPLOYMENT or at least a small percentage of unemplyment; in other words unemployment should be "released" in small doses and not be excecive at start and rampant later on.

    Naselus will obviously say "hey man, if you know how to make this happen, do share with the class" or something. Well I don't know, but I would like to know if indeed this is our target.
    Last edited by theodorium; 22-07-2012 at 13:22. Reason: epiphany

  8. #68
    Professional forum-troll ;) Yosiu's Avatar
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    The problem remains - what will be changed if it would be 10x size province ? It would still be exact same rate of unemployment. I mean pop unemloyment, not RGO's occupation %.
    The problem for now is that demand for iron isn't high enough to reflect how neccesary good it was during the era.
    The techs are historically correct so mines get bigger to meet rising demand, while farming gets more efficient, but require less workforce. The problem is, that some capitalist are reluctant do use modern types of factories, which are using iron instead of copper/bronze, which leads to overproduction of iron and shortages of copper (especially in late game, when electric gears factories start working). As far as i know capitalist behaviour is not moddable much for now, but Johan said he will make this moddable in next expansion.

  9. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by theodorium View Post
    Naselus will obviously say "hey man, if you know how to make this happen, do share with the class" or something. Well I don't know, but I would like to know if indeed this is our target.
    lol, no, I won't, since you're right and I do know exactly how to make it happen - it's what I've spent the last twelve months or so doing, every 4-5 versions. The main reason I've not re-adjusted the economy to the optimal level (~5% unemployment on day 1) is because I'm waiting for the new map changes, where upon I'd have to immediately re-adjust the whole lot again. That's also why the updates have been rather less regular recently; there's very little point in me spending a couple of days reworking the economy when Hib's going to destroy it in the next couple of weeks or so by changing the values of all the terrain in the game.

    I don't really need pointers on this atm; I'm aware of the problem, and I know how to fix it. It's just not worth doing so when we're about to make a massive change elsewhere which will simply break it again. Hence, the faster the new map stuff gets done, the better.
    For every subtle and complicated question, there is a simple and straightforward answer, which is wrong.

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  10. #70
    Second Lieutenant theodorium's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Naselus View Post
    [...]I do know exactly how to make it happen [...]
    Naselus, from all the ...codemine foremen of the world, you're the best codemine foreman EVER (whatever that is)

  11. #71
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    Just got an update today via steam and the game now has a different checksum of MEVR.

    Anyone else got this.

  12. #72
    If you get a railroad increasing invention (e.g. Industrial Railroads) before you get First Railroads you will only get the first level when you get First Railroads not the other ones from Industrial Railroads. Every further level should have the previous one as a prerequisite to prevent this.

  13. #73
    Field Marshal Rylock's Avatar
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    I played another test game through to the 1880's last night (with the latest updates from the swap thread). A few observations:

    * Uncivs are civving a little on the early side. Persia is the first, generally in the late 1850's to early 1860's. Quite a number seem to civilize in the 1870's (Egypt among them, even after having many reforms removed following a defeat in the Oriental Crisis). African nations civilizing before the Scramble for Africa seems a bit early, and in general it seems like the AI should really only be capable of doing it by the 1880's at the earliest if not the 1900's for most. Reactionary rebellions, which are designed to "set back the clock", seem to be pretty uncommon.

    * Even with the latest changes, Egypt still gets trounced by the OE. In this test game, the OE defeated them single-handedly... since there was a war going on in Europe, no other nations got involved. But they weren't needed. I'm not sure how much more we can improve an unciv Egypt, tbh. They already have equivalent military techs to the OE at start and additional bonuses from the reforms modifier. Might be what's required is a nerf to the OE if we want a somewhat historical default.

    * Prussia did very poorly-- again. In this game, it fought against France and actually won... deciding it should take the Aquitaine instead of its original wargoal for Alsace-Lorraine (lovely, that). When it later tried for Alsace-Lorraine again, Austria backstabbed it and it got completely rolled. Spain grabbed Pomerania and Brazil took Ostpreussen (!) and it never really recovered as it descended into a series of revolutions. I'm not sure what the answer is, here. Prussia can't really be expected to deal with both France and Austria at the same time... that's a situation where it should lose, really. But it's a bit disheartening to see Prussia so commonly unable to compete with Austria.

    * Saw the UCAS refuse to dissolve and eventually re-conquering all the breakaway Central American states, and then eventually absorbing both Yucatan and then Panama. First time ever.

    * Is it just me, or has the Taiping Rebellion become remarkably impotent since AHD came out? After so long with Taiping being constantly too large and powerful, suddenly it seems like Taiping is usually small and more or less immediately rolled over by the Qing Empire.

  14. #74
    I have yet to see the taiping rebellion actually succeed.

  15. #75
    Taiping is always getting raped, the cores spread way too slow, so they are always very small

  16. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaZero View Post
    Taiping is always getting raped, the cores spread way too slow, so they are always very small
    They should have a small chance to win, small, but it should be possible, just like IRL

  17. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by Connor Mulhern View Post
    They should have a small chance to win, small, but it should be possible, just like IRL
    Not THAT small tbh.

  18. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by moldeh View Post
    Not THAT small tbh.
    Well, less than a 50% 50%, like the CSA, where it is small normally, but if the Qing piss off somebody like the Russians, they get invaded and lose

  19. #79
    On Probation Straigthtsilver's Avatar
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    In my past few games the Taiping have consistently been crushed to nothingness within the span of a few months. Of course, in previous versions it was the exact opposite with the Taiping crushing the Qing under an endless tide of peasants. From the looks of it, a happy medium is going to be hard to figure out.

  20. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by Straigthtsilver View Post
    In my past few games the Taiping have consistently been crushed to nothingness within the span of a few months. Of course, in previous versions it was the exact opposite with the Taiping crushing the Qing under an endless tide of peasants. From the looks of it, a happy medium is going to be hard to figure out.
    The best place to start from would be to increase core spread, mainly increase how randomly it spreads, some games it does not catch on at all, others it spreads like wildfire, and maybe make qing forces less stable, with provincial pro-taiping uprisings, and defections to each side for both of them

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