It seems that opinions have shifted over the course of [thread=363576]four years[/thread] 
Worst National Ideas
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It seems that opinions have shifted over the course of [thread=363576]four years[/thread]
Maybe we should do a new voting?
Yes, it would be interesting to see how popular opinion of national ideas has changed in recent years. However, I won't take responsibility for starting the new poll (just in case you two were hinting at it). I'm too old for the new EU3 rapscallions
EDIT: Taking a look at the [thread=392927]Hurt and Heal Archive[/thread], it seems that Bib frowned upon such threads, but probably because there were a half a dozen concurrent threads filled with spam.
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Actually that is a pile of crap.
MOM is ok adviser, but you can always use other advisors perfectly fine, and let NB take care of inflation.
It is not about if it is bad or good, it is interchangable with NB, and you have less advisor slots than NI slots, not to mention there are not so many usefull NI that come early.
You can perfectly use advisors than can help where NIs do not (conversion, Infamy-pre cabinet, diploskill) or just boost the NIs with NI+adviser cost.
In the end, you compare the NI you would take instead of NB against advisor slot, and there are really few NIs that are worst it, Drill(only for minor, if SP), CAD/POA, NTP, Commerce, CNW. What else, other than tech 30 and tech 51 ?
Shipwrights are, in fact the same way the Military Drill is, multiplayer mostly NI.
I can agree with that, there are A LOT of NI that really don't have a great deal of benefit in SP since the AI will never challenge you enough to require such boosts.
It really shouldn't be a number game unless you are competing against another player, i mean really... when are you going to need a fleet of more then a couple hundred ships, Armies of of over a few hundred thousand men or a fricking huge economy.
MP of course is a numbers game....
It really shouldn't be a number game unless you are competing against another player, i mean really... when are you going to need a fleet of more then a couple hundred ships, Armies of of over a few hundred thousand men or a fricking huge economy
.MP of course is a numbers game....
Press gang receives little love here.
Comagoosie! You're not to old! We believe in you!
EDIT: Quite flabbergasted people killed off CAD that early years ago...
Comagoosie! You're not to old! We believe in you!
EDIT: Quite flabbergasted people killed off CAD that early years ago...
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Naval Provisioning can be useful if you are blockading an enemy fleet in a distant coastal province, no friendly ports nearby, and you don't want to move away in case the enemy fleet slips your trap.
Other than that, fairly useless, especially at naval 53, when in SP all your big wars have usually long ago been won.
Other than that, fairly useless, especially at naval 53, when in SP all your big wars have usually long ago been won.
Well then, what you say comagoosie is to ask mods if we could do such thread ourselves?
That's inherent in the statement. If it's not useful, in crises and not in crises, then it's worse than National Bank...
To be fair, I don't have that data either. And I can't even default to the scientific method because we're trying to *form* the original explanation to which we'd later be able to default. That's a little annoying. I don't doubt that this method works for you, though, and I certainly would be comfortable admitting I overstated National Bank's badness. Bah, loose ends! I'll figure something out about this. This is not something very easy to test though. Pewt, what are your thoughts on NB+MOM for manufactory blitzing? I'm undecided.
Oh, no worries, I see why - I make sweeping statements about everything and send the impression that you received. lol. But yes, I'd say it's a distinct step above the absolutely useless 3-4 you named at the start... and that's it. (Pending, of course, glen's manufactory blitz case.)
If that was your first thought, mission accomplished
Haha. What was so good about it back in IN? I only got the game some 3 months ago now and as such only have experience with DW5.1.I will start by admitting that I don't quite know how to rank BC and 'Hawks based on this, but if timed right, then these ideas can be an enormous boon. The examples I'm giving are situational, but the logic can be applied in any such situation.
The first one is my ongoing Byzantium game (and has been tested in two previous versions). By 1415, I was guaranteed to be able to hire generals at 50+ Army Tradition for the rest of the game. How? Because in the span of one month, this happened:
(1) I got my first NI slot;
(2) I got a Veterans' Home;
(3) I annexed all but Angora and Edirne from the Ottoman Empire, which included everything for the "Recover Asia Minor!" mission which grants 50 Army Tradition.
Now, (2) was dumb luck, granted, and (3) is the situational part. But I put off that NI slot for a year knowing about (3), and now I have 400 years of hiring 50+ AT generals. And, once I get the War College, my AT will equilibrate at 83%. That is insane. It's to the point where, ironically, despite citing Byzantium over and over as a good place for National Bank as your first NI, I will not pick anything but Battlefield Commissions at #1 for them. Following that strategy for the past 3 games has allowed me, every single time, to take on the Golden Horde outnumbered 4:1 with all 100,000 of their troops coming my way... and win. Being able to consistently crank out generals with 4+ Shock and Maneuver makes the Horde beatable because it levels the playing field substantially. And then everyone else is just laughable by comparison.
The second one is for Seahawks and is much easier to control. You just take Seahawks and build the Admiralty/Naval College/whatever the +1 NT/yr building is right after you explore the high seas in detail and build up your NT.
The logic behind all of this is on the wiki; taking these two ideas moves your equilibrium for AT and NT. But whether that actually ends up being little more than a minor check against a minor inconvenience or a major boost to your military depends on your timing. If you have 0 AT when you get a War College and Battlefield Commissions, you're talking about waiting a few decades to start reaping the benefits, which admittedly sucks. If you have at/close/above the equilibrium point, though, then you're maintaining that equilibrium point forever. Depending on where that equilibrium point is set, that's REALLY powerful, as the Byzantium example can show.
Now, I'm not about to say they're the best things in the world, by any means. But I will say that they're probably better than the next-to-last tier where you have 'em now. I'd at least hold them equal to the Siege Corps and Grand ____ ideas.
As for Superior Seamanship, maybe I just suck, but I have noticed myself going from consistently getting stomped in naval engagements to winning regularly. That's only with some countries (Byzantium again!) and I dunno what that means. Could just be me... I'll defer here, just don't see it as being in the next-to-last tier.
I tend to agree here, I'd rank Espionage lower.
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Again, it's all about timing. I feel like this argument could certainly be made with respect to every single military NI you could take, sans perhaps Military Drill. The thing to consider in light of this is less "Can I arrange for this fight to be unequal/avoidable without this NI?" and more "What can I now do that I would have to work around without this NI?" Sure, for some of these (Conscripts, Grand ____), the answer is "Not much" - You could already win doomstack/doomstack battles, being able to produce and support another doomstack isn't as valuable as, say, the Engineer Corps making your sieges more effective. And again, if you're picking up BC at 0 AT, then yes, it's a terrible pick. But if you're picking it up at 40+ AT?
But why would you? What advisors are better? We can point to plenty of national ideas that are better than the Bank, and already have.
Until Govt Tech 17, Idea slots are more valuable than Advisor slots in quantity and use. Post-Tech 17, the Idea slots are still more valuable in use because their effects are permanent and much more drastic. I made one such comparison earlier; you'd have to maintain constant 70+ AT and 90+ CT to keep getting 5* Grand Captains which provide 1/4 of the bonus that Military Drill provides. The Cabinet (although it appears later as you note) is another great example because while the upkeep of a Diplomat isn't as drastic, the fact that that upkeep yields 1/4 of the value of the Cabinet is. National Bank is literally *outdone* by the best MOM and *tied* with the typical MOM with the same not-drastic upkeep of a Diplomat.
In fact, thanks for citing Cabinet/Diplomat example, as that's an explicit reason NOT TO TAKE THE BANK. Think about the comparison. 6* Diplomat + NB = -.3 Infamy and -.1 inflation a year. 6* MOM + Cabinet = -.12 inflation and -1 Infamy a year. Why would you EVER do the first in light of the second?
Well, let's look.
Useful ideas prior to tech 30: Press Gangs, Seahawks, Military Drill, Engineer Corps, Battlefield Commissions, Shrewd Commerce Practice, Viceroys, Quest for the New World, National Trade Policy, Church Attendance Duty, Patron of the Arts. Even if you completely and utterly reject my analysis of BC and 'Hawks earlier, and you're a non-colonial mercantilist land power, you *still* have Military Drill, Engineer Corps, NTP, SCP, CAD and PoA which are all clearly better than the Bank. There's six ideas. Then you get to tech 30. Scientific Revolution, Smithian Economics, Cabinet. Now we're already at idea 10, right before the last tech level is unlocked. So 3 idea slots for tech 53 stuff: Revolution/Counterrevolution, Improved Foraging, Napoleonic Warfare. Done.
And that already explicitly threw out several ESSENTIAL ideas for a LOT of countries. That setup is as pro-NB as it gets and we STILL couldn't find a spot for it?
A good analysis of BC, never thought of it that way and I already liked it. Normally I would argue for drill as first Byz idea, but you made me rethink that.
How about the advisers that do not have NI backup?
You have more than 3 usefull advisors.
As you yourself pointed out, the advisor+NI can be way more potent than NI itself.
How about CAbinet+diplomat, Diploskill advisor(or theologian), and engineer+Engineer corps(colonial governor +colonisation NI)?
And all other great comboes?
Doesn`t leave the place for MoM, but you percectly can have NB.
As i said, Drill and Engineer corps are quite needles, unless you play MP.
CAD and PA are useless after fine arts accademy arrives.
So you only have ~4 usefull NIs pre goverment 17 if you`re free trade mostly, and 3 if you`re mercantilistic, after goverment 17 you only have 2 if you`re not into colonisation.
THen, you can have PUs, heaten provinces, infamy, or you can just boost your trade efficency, hence you`r 3 advisors are perfectly filled without the MoM, while you`r NI slots perfectly allow to squise NB.
It isn't efficient enough to justify doing early in the game. Tech is very powerful and you can't afford to pour 100% of your income into a slight boost to your manpower.
In MP, Excellent Shipwrights is really good if you're wondering. In SP it's pretty irrelevant.
National Ideas are, as a rule, much more powerful than advisors, which means that when one (National Bank) is less powerful than its corresponding advisor it really shouldn't be hard to pick which one you should use.
Look at any NI - Advisor pairing (Sheriff vs Bureaucracy, Bill of Rights vs High Judge, Grand Admiral/Marshal vs Superior Seamanship/Military Drill, Manpower advisor vs National Conscripts, Forcelimit advisor vs Grand Army/Navy, Discipline advisor vs Esprit D'Corps, Production advisor vs Smithian Economics, tech advisors vs Technological Revolution, tariff advisor vs Viceroys, you get the idea).
Since this is a hate thread, it's a good thing that Press Gangs (one of the most powerful NIs in the game) is not mentioned (much?), no?Press gang receives little love here.
Comagoosie! You're not to old! We believe in you!
EDIT: Quite flabbergasted people killed off CAD that early years ago...
At tech 53 in SP any NI is irrelevant.
I agree, drill is useless if not in MP, unless you are realy bad in fighting. AI is too derpish to win with a good player. But still it is quite nice NI. Anyway I don't agree about corps, they are quite nice in SP, as they make you more resistant to rebels and AI sieges, giving you more time to defeat other forces, while leaving some fronts. Plus adds some strength to your general siege. It just mean that even if you got 0 tradition, you will gain at least 1 in siege.
CAD is quite usefull, because it decrease stability cost. The bonus of having a good decision, is not so important, but the stability cost decrease is nice. With PoA it is just the fact it gives +2 innovate event, the +3 culutral tradition is not realy so greatly usefull.
About press gangs, they are the most usefull idea for a naval country. Half cost ships? Realy? If you also go full naval, cost of ships will be very very low. I think it is best first NI for england.
CAD is quite usefull, because it decrease stability cost. The bonus of having a good decision, is not so important, but the stability cost decrease is nice. With PoA it is just the fact it gives +2 innovate event, the +3 culutral tradition is not realy so greatly usefull.
About press gangs, they are the most usefull idea for a naval country. Half cost ships? Realy? If you also go full naval, cost of ships will be very very low. I think it is best first NI for england.
I'll only consider SP game in this post.
1) naval glory
2) glorious arms
these two suck, period
3) excellent shipwrights
4) merchant adventures
Only ever useful to pass a decision
5) naval provisioning - situational , comes very late
6) espionage -very situational
7) vetting - Ia is rally bad with spies , it isn't a large enough threat to bother with
8) ecumenism - I prefer coneverting heretics than letting my right religion provinces auto convert to something else
9) naval fighting instruction - very situational
10) seahawks - naval combat rarely matters really
11) superior seamanship - may be useful with 5.2 , I remember one time where I had large trouble beating spain who had this
12) grand army -early on I have trouble paying them , late game i usually don't need aditional forcelimits
13) national conscripts - may be useful in 5.2 with MP reduction
14) liberte, egalite, fraternite - pretty weak , helps with RR if you own swathes of heathens/heretics
15) improved foraging - comes too late
16) national bank - I rarely have more need than 0.10 inflation reduction
17) engineer corps, the effect isn't that great , and enables some nasty events
1) naval glory
2) glorious arms
these two suck, period
3) excellent shipwrights
4) merchant adventures
Only ever useful to pass a decision
5) naval provisioning - situational , comes very late
6) espionage -very situational
7) vetting - Ia is rally bad with spies , it isn't a large enough threat to bother with
8) ecumenism - I prefer coneverting heretics than letting my right religion provinces auto convert to something else
9) naval fighting instruction - very situational
10) seahawks - naval combat rarely matters really
11) superior seamanship - may be useful with 5.2 , I remember one time where I had large trouble beating spain who had this
12) grand army -early on I have trouble paying them , late game i usually don't need aditional forcelimits
13) national conscripts - may be useful in 5.2 with MP reduction
14) liberte, egalite, fraternite - pretty weak , helps with RR if you own swathes of heathens/heretics
15) improved foraging - comes too late
16) national bank - I rarely have more need than 0.10 inflation reduction
17) engineer corps, the effect isn't that great , and enables some nasty events
Uhm, what nasty events would those be? I take this in almost every game and I certainly don't recall "nasty events" that appear to be remotely related to this NI. According to the wiki, the only event assosciated with the NI (in DW) is "Italian Engineer Available". While a fairly cheap defensive + quality slider change may not always suit your needs, the alternative -1% prestige is hardly so bad as to make it a nasty event. In most cases that, is 2 slider moves I'll eventually want for 50 ducats+200 ducats land tech investment-a real bargain.
Also, the effect's usefulness varies pretty substantially depending on your game situation. Since I regularly get involved in central Asia and other places where travel times are somewhat longer than base siege pulse, the bonus is quite useful in keeping rebels from winning sieges before the army posted in the neighboring province arrives to smash them. If you only play in areas where travel times are short or don't expand into areas where you will generate rebellions then it is less useful but I would guess that isn't a majority of games.
I'm sure a close perusal of my list shows that I pretty much agree with this statement. The pure military (as opposed to military+economic) ideas are all ranked fairly low except MD and EC. MD is invaluable in quickly winning early wars-the situation that places many nations at greatest risk (vs. the a.i.) is being dogpiled early. Of the early NIs, it is clearly the superior choice for most any nation planning a conquest spree.
EC is good primarily for combating rebels in more remote areas, sure you could stack an anti-rebel force in every province as a workaround to that but doing so will eventually drag on your economy. It also gives you more freedom in combating enemy siege forces during wars. I can certainly see arguments that other NIs are better because you can work without EC but I personally find that it fits my playstyle and preferred game scenarios.
Drill effectivly increases your military strengt by about 1.5, in early game. Which is good if you absolutely must fight a strong enemy like when playing Granada, but in most cases, taking economical NIs or NB(for certain countries) can lead to your economy skyrocketing by having more buildings, more troops, and better tech, thus early drill is not an obvious choice.
If you go defencive, you already have a huge time to destroy rebels, i stack for ~40 provinces(in case they are bordering eachouther) is perfectly sustainable and enought in most cases.
I'll defend Ecumenism here. It's situational, not bad.
I mostly use it for Eastern powers*. First, with Eastern religions, religious tolerance under Ecumenism is usually better than it is for the True Faith. Second, Eastern powers need to Westernize like it's going out of style, which means going hard Innovative for much of the game. Also, it generally means taking a Republic at some point; see above for "better religious tolerance for heretics." So if I'm playing Manchu or Hindustan, and I have a religious mess in the midgame because I've conquered half of Asia, I can focus my resources on the heathen and enjoy the happiness of my Hindu/Confucian/Buddhist (pick two) slaves.
(That reminds me, I want to do a Ceylon-into-Hindustan at some point, because a Buddhist Hindustan has cool points.)
*Japan not included.
I mostly use it for Eastern powers*. First, with Eastern religions, religious tolerance under Ecumenism is usually better than it is for the True Faith. Second, Eastern powers need to Westernize like it's going out of style, which means going hard Innovative for much of the game. Also, it generally means taking a Republic at some point; see above for "better religious tolerance for heretics." So if I'm playing Manchu or Hindustan, and I have a religious mess in the midgame because I've conquered half of Asia, I can focus my resources on the heathen and enjoy the happiness of my Hindu/Confucian/Buddhist (pick two) slaves.
(That reminds me, I want to do a Ceylon-into-Hindustan at some point, because a Buddhist Hindustan has cool points.)
*Japan not included.
Lol, 1 stack for 40 provinces works in western Europe, Japan, and India, maybe. Try that in northern Asia, central Africa, and a few other areas sometime and you'll see a different story. When it takes 2-3 months to move 1 province every bit of defensiveness you can find is the order of the day if you don't want to see rebel controlled provinces.