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Tax Assessor and Gold standard are only available after Gov Tech 30. Only Austria and Netherlands get special decisions. And most countries start highly decentralized (usually 3 or 4) and they won't usually use their first slider change for centralization, since a big early revolt before you build up your armies can be really bad. Even if they use every other slider use for the first years (while e.g. the trade slider is also quite important early on) and totally ignore slider restrictions, it will take about 100 years (more when blobbing, less with unifications) to be fully centralized. And then it still only gives you -0.05 inflation/year.
So basically, you're stuck with the -0.1 or -0.12 inflation reduction of a MoM for quite a long time. I wont say you should mint 30% of your income after you got to Gov Tech 30, that's to much for almost any country to be sure. But 20% can be really useful (again, SOMETIMES) and in almost any case, the only thing that gives you that before half of the game (and usually all the important stuff) is over is, well, National Bank.
Early in the game you have better things to spend your limited NI slots on, and you won't be running way over your FL.
 
I know Holland has potential to turn CheckIntoCash like nobody's business, but my argument from before still holds - unbudgeted minted money is money wasted. So you don't really want to do that, per se. Anything for which you'd want cash should still be planned out and minted at 10% instead of flipping for 20% - flipping there and back is 6 stab hits for nothing, not exactly the best decision.

Regaining the 6 stab will cost less than a year if you did not expand and you will be uber in tech speeds anyway. But if you have even the slightest badboy then i do agree, this is a very bad idea
 
Early in the game you have better things to spend your limited NI slots on, and you won't be running way over your FL.
Yeah, you could colonize for example (1480 is still way before Gov Tech 30). And why don't go over your forcelimits? Cause you don't have enough money... oh wait.
 
Tax Assessor and Gold standard are only available after Gov Tech 30. Only Austria and Netherlands get special decisions. And most countries start highly decentralized (usually 3 or 4) and they won't usually use their first slider change for centralization, since a big early revolt before you build up your armies can be really bad. Even if they use every other slider use for the first years (while e.g. the trade slider is also quite important early on) and totally ignore slider restrictions, it will take about 100 years (more when blobbing, less with unifications) to be fully centralized. And then it still only gives you -0.05 inflation/year.
So basically, you're stuck with the -0.1 or -0.12 inflation reduction of a MoM for quite a long time. I wont say you should mint 30% of your income after you got to Gov Tech 30, that's to much for almost any country to be sure. But 20% can be really useful (again, SOMETIMES) and in almost any case, the only thing that gives you that before half of the game (and usually all the important stuff) is over is, well, National Bank.
We actually have yet to see a single situation in this thread that isn't crisis mode in which anyone's come to a consensus that the National Bank + Master of Mint can be useful (though again I am careful to note that we haven't run through the Manufactory Blitz discussion yet - I'm still sensing that it doesn't work out, but it has legs to it, we just need glen or someone else to return to help finish it).

Your range for *the whole game* is 10-15%. Upkeep for a Master of Mint (which will guarantee at least 10% on its own, has a decent shot at 12%) is pocket change. Yeah, it's quite a long time, but as long as it's not costing much (and 4 magistrates + 20 ducats over 2 decades is *not* much), there's no issue.

Regaining the 6 stab will cost less than a year if you did not expand and you will be uber in tech speeds anyway. But if you have even the slightest badboy then i do agree, this is a very bad idea
It's less Infamy concern and more the fact that you're taking 6 stab hits for no reason when you can just budget out in advance and get the money you need while minting at 10%.
 
Nice discussion. However, I get the feeling that all the strategies discussed are applied to Western nations. Especially the easy of getting good advisors: if you're playing a non-Christian nation, you don't get Gilded Iconography: that means that without Patron of the Arts, getting lvl 5 advisors is quite a bit harder early on. Likewise with getting ahead of time penalties: this happens much later with f.e. Asian countries.

Good poings on NB, but I still do not consider it one of the worst Ideas. May be something in the middle (and therefore useless at least in the beginning), but you can't tell me it's in the top 3 worst NIs.
 
Yeah, you could colonize for example (1480 is still way before Gov Tech 30). And why don't go over your forcelimits? Cause you don't have enough money... oh wait.
Spending money for its own sake is really pointless; that's pretty much what building over forcelimits outside of crisis mode is. You can manage hefty colonization with 10% minting just fine, so there's no need for National Bank for that. You can't just say "Well look at all the cool things I can do with all this extra money I'm minting!" because it's just not an advantage to pay diminishing returns on your military to sit around and not do much while someone who's only minting 10% is putting that extra money into tech and beating you in the tech game.

Only useful in crises =/= bad.
No, but it sure does increase the opportunity cost well beyond "BestIdeaX." If you're conceding that National Bank is only useful in crises like the ones described earlier, then you're conceding that every single NI which is useful in more than just crises is better. That's a LOT of NIs, and definitely relegates National Bank down to the tier above the truly absolute worst - the Naval Glories and Glorious Arms and Naval Provisionings of the world - and certainly relegates it to the point of being eligible for discussion in a thread about the worst ideas.

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Nice discussion. However, I get the feeling that all the strategies discussed are applied to Western nations. Especially the easy of getting good advisors: if you're playing a non-Christian nation, you don't get Gilded Iconography: that means that without Patron of the Arts, getting lvl 5 advisors is quite a bit harder early on.
I have been thinking with Christian-only states in mind, yes, BUT that said, I actually haven't even been assuming Gilded Iconography or Patron of the Arts. Just consider, if you're averaging 2 magistrates a year, then we're talking about 22 magistrates = 110 cultural tradition by 1410. Furthermore, I think it's easier for worse-tech countries, not harder, to get the MOM early. Their inferior tech means they spend more time at Tech Level 3 Everything and thus can't use their (more or less equal) magistrate stockpile on anything but advisors for longer. By 1410 you've started unlocking buildings and, hopefully, minting to build them as a Western state; lesser techs, not so much.

Good poings on NB, but I still do not consider it one of the worst Ideas. May be something in the middle (and therefore useless at least in the beginning), but you can't tell me it's in the top 3 worst NIs.
Well now THAT's arbitrary. No one ever said it was bottom-3. Only that it's pretty damn bad compared to the other ideas. I think that case has been well-made.
 
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If you're conceding that National Bank is only useful in crises like the ones described earlier, then you're conceding that every single NI which is useful in more than just crises is better.

No. That does not follow logic. The degree of usefulness, or w/e you can call it, aslo matters.
 
I can't really quantify the usefulness of max minting -> more buildings, especially manufacturies. I haven't run any tests, and I don't play MP. All I can say is that in SP I can make my nation a blob with 200+ provinces and still out-tech Aachen. I doubt that's a particularly special accomplishment, but for what it's worth it comes out of max minting and max building-up of provinces, along with at least a tad of best provinces > trash provinces acquisition selection. Like I said above, #1 goal = more magistrates, #2 goal = more cash on hand.
 
Well now THAT's arbitrary. No one ever said it was bottom-3. Only that it's pretty damn bad compared to the other ideas. I think that case has been well-made.

Certainly, and I agree that there are plenty better ideas, I just got the impression that you thought NB was bottom of the barrel. Rereading the tread, I do not see why I got that impression, you never claimed that. My apologies.
 
I think there's something important to note here: Most of us who played IN have National Bank ingrained in our head as the best idea ever hands down. Personally when I read the first post I said to myself "Hah, you must be joking." But after thinking about it, it is drastically inferior now.

However, I think National Bank is, in DW, still a decent mid-game idea, especially for a lot of nations that could use the inflation reduction stack to go along with a MoM.
 
Because you don't have enough manpower.

Manpower and way increased army costs over the forcelimits are probably the problems in 5.2. However, in 5.1 you can use units just as "saved manpower", cause your manpower generation is not effected by the amount of units you have. Just produce units all the time before you get to the manpower max and you will have a really huge army quite fast.
 
I don't know that I'd say they are the worst but here is how I see things. Note that I almost exclusively play SP so some that are useful in MP will see no use.

1) naval glory
2) glorious arms
3) excellent shipwrights

I'm pretty sure I've never taken any of these 3 unless there is a nation-specific reason (decision) to do so

4) naval provisioning
5) espionage
6) vetting
7) ecumenism
8) humanist tolerance
9) merchant adventures
10) naval fighting instruction
11) battlefield commisions
12) seahawks
13) superior seamanship

of extremely questionable use in nearly all SP situations although I can see some possibility of MP effectiveness

14) grand navy
15) grand army
16) national conscripts
17) esprit de corps
18) liberte, egalite, fraternite
19) improved foraging
20) national bank
21) press gangs
22) unam sanctum
23) bill of rights
24) cabinet
25) shred commerce practices
26) viceroys
27) bureaucracy

situationally useful, some are quite useful but often unavailable as in general I do not allow NI swapping at all as a house rule

28) colonial ventures
29) land of opportunity
30) divine supremacy
31) patron of the arts
32) quest for new world
33) church attendance duty
34) improved foraging
35) regimental system
36) engineer corps

situationally (or always) strong, taken in many games

37) scientific revolution
38) national trade policy
39) military drill
40) Smithian Economics

The best of the best (when they become available), if one is available and I don't have a compelling reason to take something else instead then these will be taken
 
Excelent shipwrights are quite good NI for naval country, +2 maneuver for general means you like allways get at least 2-3 maneuver, and maneuver helps in battles and in intercepting/evading enemy fleet.

In general, the entire naval system is a sideshow (in SP, as a I noted) at best. There are very few instances where naval power is even relevant in determining the outcome of wars, most of which involve defeating England. As there are effective means to get around lack of naval power to do even that, wasting a precious NI slot to improve admirals which in themself are a waste of diplomats+ducats is insanity.
 
In general, the entire naval system is a sideshow (in SP, as a I noted) at best. There are very few instances where naval power is even relevant in determining the outcome of wars, most of which involve defeating England. As there are effective means to get around lack of naval power to do even that, wasting a precious NI slot to improve admirals which in themself are a waste of diplomats+ducats is insanity.

I have to agree with this. There are so few significant naval battles. Even playing as a naval country, improved admirals is just not worth an NI slot. Your great admirals are very likely to be wasted.

On another note, I generally like brifbart's list, but I think Battlefield Commissions should be ranked higher. I love esprit de corps, too.
 
Espionage is the least useful. It's rare to run out of spies in the first place; it usually happens because you are spamming to try and create as many rebellions as possible in an enemy country and one extra per year makes no difference.
 
I have to agree with this. There are so few significant naval battles. Even playing as a naval country, improved admirals is just not worth an NI slot. Your great admirals are very likely to be wasted.

On another note, I generally like brifbart's list, but I think Battlefield Commissions should be ranked higher. I love esprit de corps, too.

Esprit de corps suffers in placement simply due to the fact that it comes so late. How many meaningful wars are there in a SP game after tech 53 has been reached? I prefer improved foraging for the simple reason that it is useful at peace as well when you have low supply provinces.

Battlefield Commisions suffers, to an extent, from the same problem as excellent shipwrights-how valuable is that bonus for an NI slot..in SP you can generally win wars without having great generals because you can usually arrange for the actual fights to be completely unequal or avoid them altogether. Thus a bonus to military tradition is going to be mostly wasted.