Okay, guys, this is a different thread than normal. It's connected to an AAR, so roleplaying is an important issue. I basically don't want to do a gamey land grab here, realistic or not. My ruler and his council and vassals are concerned with legitimacy and they're not normally into gamey inheritances.
So basically, in a later historical start (1296) I have those Komnenos claimants (previous Byzantine dynasty, before the Palaiologoi) with my dynasty's surname and membership through a matrilineal marriage, which is basically a device to ensure alliance if they ever get installed as Byzantine Emperors to avoid them getting ousted on day two (or even day 1). Except there have been some quick deaths and claims weaken with inheritance anyway. So I now have the last weak claimant.
This is actually easy: there are plenty of Christian provinces awaiting liberation and the horde (Timurids) is weakened, so I go there. I DoW the breakaway chiefs and the Khagan himself, try to gain all. Pressing claims of vassals in Christian realms is a lower priority. End of story. And I'm not going to make like 100K people die to change the imperial house. Maybe a freshly deposed and undisputably legal one but the Komnenoi were deposed in like 1187 and in connection with a very bad cruel emperor who managed to get himself ousted. Previously, their accession wasn't a shining example of legitimacy. The first of their house was a usurper, a while later they did ascend to the throne in more legitimate-looking circumstances but anyway. On the other hand, the Palaiologoi gain some legitimacy by restoring the empire (even though Michael VIII, who regained Constantinople in 1261, had deposed and blinded the Nikaian emperor he had served before, before getting himself appointed co-ruler). So mixed feelings for both dynasties, don't particularly believe in the cause of either of them, at least not to the point of starting a major bloodbath to reinstall a dynasty from 200 years back (plus some years as Trebisond before it fell in the game and it fell early, and then it was a Duchy in my realm because I holy-warred it out of the Ilkhanate and gave it to the Komnenoi, whom I tracked and invited for the purpose).
But some time ago there was a strife among the Palaiologoi. A Basileus got himself replaced by his brother or uncle some two generations ago for being a cruel bastard. The son or grandson of the deposed one is still a claimant while holding the Duchy of Thrace and a couple of others, so the current usurper Basileus line has not even seen Constantinople. Obviously, the Doux of Thrace revolts whenever he can but generally somehow manages to get beaten.
Things being so, the current Basileus, probably a third or fourth after the usurpation (the usurpers are more short-lived than the previously ruling branch), has got himself incapacitated. This means he will soon die. His heir is a relatively distant cousin who does have the title of Prince because of being the son or brother of someone who actually reigned a while back. That cousin is old, like 50, his wife is also. Obviously, it can be that his wife dies and he remarries and has a son soon before dying. I've seen 84 years old demesne placeholder dukes start dynasties. But the likelihood isn't huge.
I actually managed to invite that woman into my court. Married her to somebody from my dynasty, got her to convert and become Catholic. The guy died and there were no kids. I've tried to get her to marry one of the guys who are descended from the Komnenos claimants, to reinforce their claims. Even though this woman was an heir-of-heir of the HRE and a very obvious soon-to-be heir of the thing, they all desired a better alliance. I actually got pissed off at them and decided to get her betrothed to my son and heir (she's adult, he's not). I could always marry a daughter of my son to one of those guys, they wouldn't refuse a daughter of their liege. Then they would have a claim and a CB again.
On the other hand, if her father doesn't have a son before dying, which is possible, she will inherit BYZ (which is not quite a blob with like 140 size but is still in top 10 and is an imperial tier title), and after her so will the son of my son unless she and my son live until 1453 (it's 1398 and they're teens, so it's marginally possible).
While it would be cool to become emperor and perhaps a nice end for an AAR starting in 1296 as a duke, but it feels like this would go heavily against my previous idea of supporting the Komnenoi heirs and acting as their protector rather than merely getting the land itself in holy wars and a crusade. (I guess as a guaranteed ally due to sharing the official dynasty membership with them after their matrilineal marriage I could probably give the Kingdom of Greece to them and avoid them losing it.) Not to mention that the current line of BYZ emperors are obvious usurpers. The entire dynasty are usurpers and the current line in power has usurped the senior line. I don't really feel like inserting myself there and beating everybody into submission, although I'm distressed by their constant warfare and would like to put an end to it but this isn't really a reason to put myself in power there as a complete outsider and assert myself.
(Obviously, marrying into the family would make me an ally, with prestige penalties for DoWing them or refusing to help them.)
(And, for the record, she is a like living saint and paragon of virtues judging by her traits, and the stats aren't bad either. She's a thoroughly lovable person.)
So here's a couple of things I could do on the roleplaying side or even the technical gameplay side to an extent (generally with the assumption that I would accept calls to war against the deposed senior line, who have better rights to the throne than the young woman does):
(#1) - Just marry that woman to my son since those idiots (the Komnenos heirs) spurned her, NOT accept her calls to war if/when she succeeds, and when my grandson succeeds: placate everybody with gifts and court titles into non-rebellion, maintain peace, see the maintenance of peace as a source of legitimacy, sort of like "screw their politics, I got here by peaceful means and I'm going to keep them from being near-constantly at war against each other" ("them" includes the Catholic remnants of the Latin empire and still active independents like Epyrus or Athens; I could probably vassalise all the Catholic dukes as emperor and the rest would eventually have heirs who came to my court and became Catholic); I could also claim that every previous dynasty were either usurpers or otherwise of doubtful legitimacy and at any rate currently without heirs alive, so as long as I get there by peaceful means I'm as good as anybody but this would be a bit gamey approach.
(#2) - Gain the imperial throne for myself (well, for my future grandson), marry that grandson to a slightly older Komnenos girl (non-claimant, no lands, no nothing in game terms) perhaps as a tribute to roleplaying concerns, figuratively merging at least a part of the Komnenos legacy into my ruling house;
(#3) - Gain the throne but upon gaining it make the Komnenos heirs (who are officially members of my own dynasty) gave the entire Patch 1.05 Kingdom of Greece to the Komnenos heirs; they would not be emperors but they would rule more land than their dynasty had ruled before (up to full 59 counties since I could vassalise dukes as an emperor more easily) and they would be overlords of the guy who holds Constantinople. I suppose in roleplaying/AAR terms I could come up with some imaginary roleplaying background to alleviate the situation.
What I can't do is grant the imperial title to anybody once gained. I can't even reload as them, declare war, reload as me, surrender, pretend there was no war. This because they have at best a weak claim. I'm not sure they could plot to gain the imperial crown, upon which I could reload back as me and surrender when receiving their letter. Then again, if I actually made them emperors, the country could plunge into one million civil wars that the AI would be unable to prevent.
Since they are my own dynasty, I could perhaps switch to elective and actually get to play as them when my currently 75 years old (or so) ruler dies. And then marry that woman. But either she or they will likely marry in the meantime, not to mention the huge backlash of relations hit, rebellions, claimants etc. if I change my succession laws everywhere.
So I guess I'm stuck with options #1 to #3 unless I simply ignore her and leave both the Palaiologos-loyal Byzantines and my own Komnenos-derived claimants (they are basically Komnenoi with mother's surname) to their own devices. I've even got myself to the point of this but it makes me feel like I'm wasting a huge opportunity. And if I don't pulls this off right now, the Komnenos claims will expire, there'll be no way to make them emperors, the deposed main line of the Palaiologoi will perhaps never regain the throne (white peace keeps the claim pressed but passing generations make it weaker and the longer the usurpers reign, the more consolidate their power, larger demesne, new acquisitions etc.). Those guys will keep in-fighting and fighting against
For the record, I wouldn't even mind inheriting the main line of the Palaiologoi (or even the usurping line if the deposed senior line had given up their claims) and telling the Komnenos Piasts to deal with it (I'd make them kings of Greece as a consolation prize) because they aren't much better in terms of legitimacy. But the fact that the current line are basically usurpers, contested at every point, is the stopping factor for me here. I basically don't want to derive my legitimacy from usurpers or rule without legitimacy when/if at all my grandson succeeds there.
Can anybody think of option #5? Some other thing that could be done without actually editing the saves or modding the game?
For the record, setting the Komnenos heirs up for a usurpation is impossible due to the number of counties, so I can't grant land to them and free them up as independents with a royal title, capable of the usurpation. And they're Catholic and from what I've heard, you have to be Orthodox?
What would you guys do in my situation?
So basically, in a later historical start (1296) I have those Komnenos claimants (previous Byzantine dynasty, before the Palaiologoi) with my dynasty's surname and membership through a matrilineal marriage, which is basically a device to ensure alliance if they ever get installed as Byzantine Emperors to avoid them getting ousted on day two (or even day 1). Except there have been some quick deaths and claims weaken with inheritance anyway. So I now have the last weak claimant.
This is actually easy: there are plenty of Christian provinces awaiting liberation and the horde (Timurids) is weakened, so I go there. I DoW the breakaway chiefs and the Khagan himself, try to gain all. Pressing claims of vassals in Christian realms is a lower priority. End of story. And I'm not going to make like 100K people die to change the imperial house. Maybe a freshly deposed and undisputably legal one but the Komnenoi were deposed in like 1187 and in connection with a very bad cruel emperor who managed to get himself ousted. Previously, their accession wasn't a shining example of legitimacy. The first of their house was a usurper, a while later they did ascend to the throne in more legitimate-looking circumstances but anyway. On the other hand, the Palaiologoi gain some legitimacy by restoring the empire (even though Michael VIII, who regained Constantinople in 1261, had deposed and blinded the Nikaian emperor he had served before, before getting himself appointed co-ruler). So mixed feelings for both dynasties, don't particularly believe in the cause of either of them, at least not to the point of starting a major bloodbath to reinstall a dynasty from 200 years back (plus some years as Trebisond before it fell in the game and it fell early, and then it was a Duchy in my realm because I holy-warred it out of the Ilkhanate and gave it to the Komnenoi, whom I tracked and invited for the purpose).
But some time ago there was a strife among the Palaiologoi. A Basileus got himself replaced by his brother or uncle some two generations ago for being a cruel bastard. The son or grandson of the deposed one is still a claimant while holding the Duchy of Thrace and a couple of others, so the current usurper Basileus line has not even seen Constantinople. Obviously, the Doux of Thrace revolts whenever he can but generally somehow manages to get beaten.
Things being so, the current Basileus, probably a third or fourth after the usurpation (the usurpers are more short-lived than the previously ruling branch), has got himself incapacitated. This means he will soon die. His heir is a relatively distant cousin who does have the title of Prince because of being the son or brother of someone who actually reigned a while back. That cousin is old, like 50, his wife is also. Obviously, it can be that his wife dies and he remarries and has a son soon before dying. I've seen 84 years old demesne placeholder dukes start dynasties. But the likelihood isn't huge.
I actually managed to invite that woman into my court. Married her to somebody from my dynasty, got her to convert and become Catholic. The guy died and there were no kids. I've tried to get her to marry one of the guys who are descended from the Komnenos claimants, to reinforce their claims. Even though this woman was an heir-of-heir of the HRE and a very obvious soon-to-be heir of the thing, they all desired a better alliance. I actually got pissed off at them and decided to get her betrothed to my son and heir (she's adult, he's not). I could always marry a daughter of my son to one of those guys, they wouldn't refuse a daughter of their liege. Then they would have a claim and a CB again.
On the other hand, if her father doesn't have a son before dying, which is possible, she will inherit BYZ (which is not quite a blob with like 140 size but is still in top 10 and is an imperial tier title), and after her so will the son of my son unless she and my son live until 1453 (it's 1398 and they're teens, so it's marginally possible).
While it would be cool to become emperor and perhaps a nice end for an AAR starting in 1296 as a duke, but it feels like this would go heavily against my previous idea of supporting the Komnenoi heirs and acting as their protector rather than merely getting the land itself in holy wars and a crusade. (I guess as a guaranteed ally due to sharing the official dynasty membership with them after their matrilineal marriage I could probably give the Kingdom of Greece to them and avoid them losing it.) Not to mention that the current line of BYZ emperors are obvious usurpers. The entire dynasty are usurpers and the current line in power has usurped the senior line. I don't really feel like inserting myself there and beating everybody into submission, although I'm distressed by their constant warfare and would like to put an end to it but this isn't really a reason to put myself in power there as a complete outsider and assert myself.
(Obviously, marrying into the family would make me an ally, with prestige penalties for DoWing them or refusing to help them.)
(And, for the record, she is a like living saint and paragon of virtues judging by her traits, and the stats aren't bad either. She's a thoroughly lovable person.)
So here's a couple of things I could do on the roleplaying side or even the technical gameplay side to an extent (generally with the assumption that I would accept calls to war against the deposed senior line, who have better rights to the throne than the young woman does):
(#1) - Just marry that woman to my son since those idiots (the Komnenos heirs) spurned her, NOT accept her calls to war if/when she succeeds, and when my grandson succeeds: placate everybody with gifts and court titles into non-rebellion, maintain peace, see the maintenance of peace as a source of legitimacy, sort of like "screw their politics, I got here by peaceful means and I'm going to keep them from being near-constantly at war against each other" ("them" includes the Catholic remnants of the Latin empire and still active independents like Epyrus or Athens; I could probably vassalise all the Catholic dukes as emperor and the rest would eventually have heirs who came to my court and became Catholic); I could also claim that every previous dynasty were either usurpers or otherwise of doubtful legitimacy and at any rate currently without heirs alive, so as long as I get there by peaceful means I'm as good as anybody but this would be a bit gamey approach.
(#2) - Gain the imperial throne for myself (well, for my future grandson), marry that grandson to a slightly older Komnenos girl (non-claimant, no lands, no nothing in game terms) perhaps as a tribute to roleplaying concerns, figuratively merging at least a part of the Komnenos legacy into my ruling house;
(#3) - Gain the throne but upon gaining it make the Komnenos heirs (who are officially members of my own dynasty) gave the entire Patch 1.05 Kingdom of Greece to the Komnenos heirs; they would not be emperors but they would rule more land than their dynasty had ruled before (up to full 59 counties since I could vassalise dukes as an emperor more easily) and they would be overlords of the guy who holds Constantinople. I suppose in roleplaying/AAR terms I could come up with some imaginary roleplaying background to alleviate the situation.
What I can't do is grant the imperial title to anybody once gained. I can't even reload as them, declare war, reload as me, surrender, pretend there was no war. This because they have at best a weak claim. I'm not sure they could plot to gain the imperial crown, upon which I could reload back as me and surrender when receiving their letter. Then again, if I actually made them emperors, the country could plunge into one million civil wars that the AI would be unable to prevent.
Since they are my own dynasty, I could perhaps switch to elective and actually get to play as them when my currently 75 years old (or so) ruler dies. And then marry that woman. But either she or they will likely marry in the meantime, not to mention the huge backlash of relations hit, rebellions, claimants etc. if I change my succession laws everywhere.
So I guess I'm stuck with options #1 to #3 unless I simply ignore her and leave both the Palaiologos-loyal Byzantines and my own Komnenos-derived claimants (they are basically Komnenoi with mother's surname) to their own devices. I've even got myself to the point of this but it makes me feel like I'm wasting a huge opportunity. And if I don't pulls this off right now, the Komnenos claims will expire, there'll be no way to make them emperors, the deposed main line of the Palaiologoi will perhaps never regain the throne (white peace keeps the claim pressed but passing generations make it weaker and the longer the usurpers reign, the more consolidate their power, larger demesne, new acquisitions etc.). Those guys will keep in-fighting and fighting against
For the record, I wouldn't even mind inheriting the main line of the Palaiologoi (or even the usurping line if the deposed senior line had given up their claims) and telling the Komnenos Piasts to deal with it (I'd make them kings of Greece as a consolation prize) because they aren't much better in terms of legitimacy. But the fact that the current line are basically usurpers, contested at every point, is the stopping factor for me here. I basically don't want to derive my legitimacy from usurpers or rule without legitimacy when/if at all my grandson succeeds there.
Can anybody think of option #5? Some other thing that could be done without actually editing the saves or modding the game?
For the record, setting the Komnenos heirs up for a usurpation is impossible due to the number of counties, so I can't grant land to them and free them up as independents with a royal title, capable of the usurpation. And they're Catholic and from what I've heard, you have to be Orthodox?
What would you guys do in my situation?