Want to become the Junior partner in a PU

[Kurblius]

I've started a new game as Navarra, and I've managed to survive the first 10 years without being annexed by Aragon thanks to some provinces I acquired in Italy, alliances with some naval powers, and pure starting luck. I have just lost a war with Aragon, but the terms weren't too bad.

1.) Is it possible (and strategically desirable) to become a junior partner in a PU? And if so, how could I engineer this? It seems to me being a junior PU is better than being a vassal. The way I see it, you get the protection without the need to give money to your master.

2.) Can junior PU/vassals have PU/vassals of their own? For example, say I'm a 2 province Navarre, with 1 OPM Modena vassal. Can I be vassilized with the Modena vassal intact? There's also a chance I will acquire OPM Tuscony in a PU.

[Gqarz]

It is possible to be the junior partner of a PU. I had this happen to me once as Castille. My 9/8/9 king died after 3 years on the throne without issue. Austria claimed my throne and got the PU without an invasion. The PU lasted for about 20 years where I just played the game as normal, but I couldn't form alliances, start wars etc...

I really doubt you would want to engineer it. There is always the chance that you could get inherited and the game is over from there. You would be better served allying with a much larger power and gobbling up some smaller OPMs. In my game as Venice, I was 7 or 8 provinces, BUT I had 8 or 9 small vassals that I bribed to keep good relations with. I managed to take down Austria with them in a couple wars.

As for #2, you can't enter into any form of diplomatic relationship as the junior member of a PU. They have to go through big brother.

[Sincleric]

I have had a personal union over another large nation, and all of their vassals remained intact. However, they could not form new vassals, since all of their diplomatic functions are dead.

I think it would be a much better idea to war with a massive nation, then offer to become their vassal. You have a few more options open to you in such a circumstance, and it is much easier to obtain vassalage than it is a personal union. On the other hand, PUs are easier to end than vassalization. If you do manage to get into a personal union, just make sure that you have terrible relations with your master, or else there is a great chance you will get inherited when the king dies. If you have less than zero relations, the union ends on ruler death.

[Kurblius]

I have had a personal union over another large nation, and all of their vassals remained intact. However, they could not form new vassals, since all of their diplomatic functions are dead.

I think it would be a much better idea to war with a massive nation, then offer to become their vassal. You have a few more options open to you in such a circumstance, and it is much easier to obtain vassalage than it is a personal union. On the other hand, PUs are easier to end than vassalization. If you do manage to get into a personal union, just make sure that you have terrible relations with your master, or else there is a great chance you will get inherited when the king dies. If you have less than zero relations, the union ends on ruler death.

A player in a PU can't be inherited by the AI. Or so I've read somewhere I think. How do you break a PU where you're the junior member? Do you need to declare war without a casus belli, as in vassilage?

[apsycobear]

When the senior partner's king dies if your relations are below 0 the pu will end instantly, so basically just spam insults. You can also declare war without a casus belli.

[Ashantai]

The player can't be inherited by the AI, so being a Junior in a PU is actually quite good for a minor power.

[DDRJake]

Having piss-poor prestige helps a lot in becoming the junior member of a PU. Just try as hard as you can to get your king killed and hope that you get a lucky hunting accident. Also marry any and every high-prestige country you can.

Junior PU members do, in my experience, keep their vassals but it leads to the laughable sitution where Country X declares war on the junior partner's vassal, the junior partner calls in the senior PU partner but the junior partner remains the war leader unable to make peace until the senior partner peaces out of the war.

It's a complicated affair but yes, better than being a vassal and having half of your monthly tax come straight out of your coffers. Not out of your tech money but staight out of your pocket!

[Maggo]

I think the PU CB works both ways. So you can start a Claim war and then concede defeat and become a lesser partner. I'm not 100% on this, but it should be easy to test as Austria etc.

[Panopticon]

Even though it's possible to become the lesser partner I don't think it's a viable strategy for the simple reason that it's just pure (un)luck if it happens. If it happens it will most likely not happen during the first 20 years and if you have survived 20 years you should have been able to expand and you don't have any need for that extreme protection anymore...

I think the PU CB works both ways. So you can start a Claim war and then concede defeat and become a lesser partner. I'm not 100% on this, but it should be easy to test as Austria etc.

I had to check this. It sounded weird but also interresting. Regrettably I have to inform you guys that it's not correct, the PU CB is not mutual.

[Kurblius]

Thanks guys! I'm still not sure if a PU is the best option, but I guess since it seems I can't do a whole lot (other than reduce my prestige, which I don't really want to do) I guess I'll just have to wait and see. I think I have acquired a few more protections from Aragon as well. What do you guys make of this arrangement?:

Aragon's Alliance:
Aragon has the mission "Vassilize Navarre"
Aragon is allied with France and Brittany
France is allied with Scotland, Aragon, and a bunch of vassals.

My Alliance:
Navarre is allied with Portugal, Sicily, and Scotland
Navarre is guaranteed by England
Navarre is in the Sphere of Influence of Castille
Navarre has 150+ relations with Castille, royal marriage, and give Castille military access.
Portugal is allied with Castille and England

Other Happenings:
The Emperor is currently Bohemia and he hates me, but Bohemia's been excommunicated and is being overun by Austria, the likely next Emperor. Austria is neutral towards me, and unlikely to be relevant for some time. Denmark has Norway and Sweden in a PU.

In the last war, England, Sicily and Portugal gave me naval superiority over Aragon and France, though I still had to concede defeat because of the the shear strength of France-Aragon's land forces. I may decide to ditch Scotland - I don't want to get into a war with England. My thinking is that should Castille join the next war with Aragon, I think the war should tip in my favour. At the very least a hostile attack from Castille seems unlikely (unless Castille get's a mission to vassilize me). Thoughts?

[sprites]

I think the PU CB works both ways. So you can start a Claim war and then concede defeat and become a lesser partner. I'm not 100% on this, but it should be easy to test as Austria etc.

becoming lesser part isn't something ou can offer , like becomming a vassal.

If you get a PU with a nation that has vassals , they will slowly diploannex them , but won't have new ones.

[DDRJake]

Give France military access and high relation. If they were to join the war against you they would take a massive stability and WE hit and would happilly take swift peace. Navarre can earn so much money that it can slap about its much bigger badder neighbours without -too- much bother if you're an experienced player, which you are.

[n0thin]

This may be true for the 5.1 patch, but with the current beta, it's so much costlier to go over the forcelimits...

[Kurblius]

Yeah, I'm not a fan of going over forcelimit. I did in my last war, but only because I was receiving an incredible 4 ducats per month in war subsidy from Portugal. It was a lot at this early in the game, and I actually prolonged the war just so I could keep collect the subsidy. Improving relations with France is a good idea. It's going to take time, money, and prolonged peace. I've noticed that countries tend not to give or accept military access if you've just fought a war with them, even if you've improved relations considerably.

I can't say I'm very taken with monarchies so far. My King died in the first year of the game, leaving me with a 1 year old heir. 13 years of 3*3*6 regency later, that heir subsequently died, leaving me with no heir. I've been trying not to cheat this game but I discovered I couldn't resist reloading at this point.

[Xeorm]

Their benefits really don't come into play until you can start getting PU's on other nations, otherwise you're pretty much just benefiting from legitimacy bonuses.

For the topic since I didn't see it mentioned, junior partners can keep their PU's and can even inherit separately when your leader dies. Which was rather depressing, get the "Country inherited" message only to see it's just the junior inheriting.