Religious Conversion too fast ?

whosthebestcop · Jul 9, 2012

I've noticed in my couple of 1.06 games that counties seem to converting religions pretty quickly. When I took over north Africa and gave each county to a count it was almost completely converted to Catholic before the recently conquered penalty wore off and that's the shortest penalty.

Once it converts the Religious penalty, usually the longest, goes away and then you are left with the cultural one which isn't that bad you can still get some tax and troops once the religion converts and the recently conquered penalty goes away.

I think in my pre 1.06 games my the culture of the county would usually switch before it converted to Catholic from Muslim.

So was wondering has anyone else seen Religion Conversion happening extremely fast?

Olaus Petrus · Jul 9, 2012

Religious conversion is always much faster in Paradox games than it was historically. For example historically it took centuries to convert Egypt to Islam and large portions of it's population were still Christian in 1066. However in game it's all Muslim and if you conquer Byzantium you can convert whole Anatolia and Greece to Islam in few decades. I don't know logic behind that, but I assume it's gameplay related.

Redwulf_Storm · Jul 9, 2012

I agree it is too fast. Maybe they should put a restriction on newly conquered territories where they will not be converted for a minimum of 20 years (a generation), that is much more believable. Or maybe they could have special religious events where if you spend money/pretige/piety you can "encourage" conversion at a much faster rate. Of course in counties of your empire that convert to heresies you should be able to convert them much faster then conquered ones, since the flock has just gone wayward, and a few well placed lashes should correct that rather well methinks.

l3ol3o · Jul 9, 2012

It depends on what you do. If you give each county that is a different religion to a separate count they will be converted rather quickly because each count will have someone working to convert that providence. Give a Count 3 counties and it will take much longer because only 1 councilor will be working to convert 3 counties.

This is a game though so of course it won't take 100's a years to convert areas. It normally does take decades though which I think is about right.

The great thing about this game is you can easily change the convert rate. I'll explain how:

First go to C:\Program Files (x86)\Steam\steamapps\common\crusader kings ii\events or the similar folder

You will see a txt file called job_lord_spiritual

Open and maximize that file. The first job listed in inquisition. You should see a line that says

mean_time_to_happen = {
months = XXXX

You shouldn't even have to scroll down to find it.

All you need to do is change the number next to "months ="

If you set it to 1200 that means on average a county will be converted in 100 years. Good councilors speed this up of course.

unmerged(358109) · Jul 9, 2012

I like it as it is currently, since it depends on your Chaplin, and a man of persuasion can easily turn the masses, manipulating people, especially in the old times where there were no newspaper, internet or long range communication, making people believe wasn't as far fetch to do in a couple of years, but i doubt there was as many 25+ learning priests running about in rl unlike in the game thou.

tvremote84 · Jul 10, 2012

I've always thought, and this would be hard to implement without being "deterministic", that religion during this time period was much more tied to culture than the game represents. When the Turks invaded Anatolia they didn't convert the Greeks, the Greeks simply fled west and Anatolia became Turkish muslim. When the Spanish drove the Moors out of Spain they didn't convert them, they were replaced by Catholic Spaniards. The Golden horde didn't convert the Russians...yadda yadda you get the picture.

Now this is obviously an oversimplification as there were indeed people who did convert, but by and large there were no large scale events where entire cultures became another religion. Sadly, this game doesn't represent population movements very well at all, so being even close to accurate is probably out of the question.

Olaus Petrus · Jul 10, 2012

tvremote84 said:
I've always thought, and this would be hard to implement without being "deterministic", that religion during this time period was much more tied to culture than the game represents. When the Turks invaded Anatolia they didn't convert the Greeks, the Greeks simply fled west and Anatolia became Turkish muslim. When the Spanish drove the Moors out of Spain they didn't convert them, they were replaced by Catholic Spaniards. The Golden horde didn't convert the Russians...yadda yadda you get the picture.

Now this is obviously an oversimplification as there were indeed people who did convert, but by and large there were no large scale events where entire cultures became another religion. Sadly, this game doesn't represent population movements very well at all, so being even close to accurate is probably out of the question.

I have to disagree. The truth is that while some new people moved into the region and other people fled, most people stayed. For example modern Turks of Turkey have a mix of Central Asian Turkic and Anatolian ancestry and area was religiously quite mixed till the modern era. During the centuries Anatolians and Turks married each other and many Anatolians adopted Islam instead of Orthodox religion. The truth is that many Anatolian Orthodox weren't even ethnic Greeks, but rather descendants of different ancient nations who had adopted Orthodox faith and Greek language during Byzantine rule.

BTW culture of my ancestors abandoned their own gods and adopted foreign imported religion during the time period of the game. Still foreign conquerors didn't replace them with people of their own ethnic group, but instead foreigners converted them.

NapoleonI · Jul 10, 2012

The fact that provinces are so easily converted, somehow tells us that even the developers think that peasant rebels are dull. Imagine having to stomp the same peasant rebels again and again and again without ever seeing an end to it.

If the conversion rates were realistic and with the current rebel system, the game would become unbearable and repetitive after a few hours of expansion.

unmerged(2609) · Jul 10, 2012

I think it is okay given current mechanics, which involve dedicating an advisor to trying to convert each province in turn.

I've had it take over 20 years to convert a province, several times, and that's a long time to have an advisor tied up.

If Paradox decides to make it hands-off but take longer, that's fine with me.

whosthebestcop · Jul 10, 2012

Was there any change to conversion from 1.05 to 1.06? I thought it appeared to be faster in 1.06 but it could just be one of them fluke games.

alexti · Jul 10, 2012

tvremote84 said:
Now this is obviously an oversimplification as there were indeed people who did convert, but by and large there were no large scale events where entire cultures became another religion. Sadly, this game doesn't represent population movements very well at all, so being even close to accurate is probably out of the question.

Just before the game start Rus has converted to Orthodox. And according to some sources, they have converted once, then reverted back to pagan and then converted to Orthodox again. It might have been facilitated by paganism remaining more or less acceptable religion. Apparently, in many regions at that time changing religion wasn't that much of a deal; so perhaps, Paradox model works quite well for those parts of the world. So, I would imagine, to model it more accurately conversion rate should be different depending on region and/or culture, and perhaps also on the religions involved.

tvremote84 · Jul 10, 2012

alexti said:
. So, I would imagine, to model it more accurately conversion rate should be different depending on region and/or culture, and perhaps also on the religions involved.

Yeah thats essentially what I was trying to imply, but did an admittedly lazy job with it. Cultures themselves are represented in very simplistic terms in this game so I'm not sure there is a better way to model the relgion/culture thing then the way they do it now.

Sunfighter · Jul 10, 2012

I think the AI has a special bonus towards converting honestly. My vassals seem to be able to pull it off always in a few years. Meanwhile I can have 20+ skill state priests that die of old age well before they convert anything.. my territory is always the last to convert.

Olaus Petrus · Jul 10, 2012

alexti said:
Just before the game start Rus has converted to Orthodox. And according to some sources, they have converted once, then reverted back to pagan and then converted to Orthodox again. It might have been facilitated by paganism remaining more or less acceptable religion. Apparently, in many regions at that time changing religion wasn't that much of a deal; so perhaps, Paradox model works quite well for those parts of the world. So, I would imagine, to model it more accurately conversion rate should be different depending on region and/or culture, and perhaps also on the religions involved.

The conversion of Rus followed pretty much the standard pattern. First some people converted while other remained pagan and while even some rulers, like Olga of Kiev, were Christian they still didn't have the strenght to enforce the conversion. Only when Christianity has enough support among the ruling class it's possible to make it official religion and start forcefully convert pagans. Naturally many of those who were forcefully converted paid only the lip service to the new God, but eventually the urban population became fully Christian. It should be also remembered that Vladimir the Great only converted cities, which already had Christian groups living in them before the forced conversion, while countryside remained pagan. Some remote areas were still semipagan in early modern era.

It would be cool to have religion model of Victoria in CKII, where there are minority and majority religions in the province, because it could be used to simulate the conversion process and tensions between different religious groups in a more realistic way.

Emre Yigit · Jul 10, 2012

tvremote84 said:
I've always thought, and this would be hard to implement without being "deterministic", that religion during this time period was much more tied to culture than the game represents. When the Turks invaded Anatolia they didn't convert the Greeks, the Greeks simply fled west and Anatolia became Turkish muslim. When the Spanish drove the Moors out of Spain they didn't convert them, they were replaced by Catholic Spaniards. The Golden horde didn't convert the Russians...yadda yadda you get the picture.

Ummmm, I'm not so sure. Not just because I don't actually look like my Khazak cousins, but also because genetic studies suggest otherwise. They first suggest that the similarities with the Central Asian Turks are low (http://www.turktoresi.com/viewforum.php?f=79, in Turkish, sorry); second, that there is high DNA carried over from previous inhabitants (eg http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v19/n5/abs/ejhg2010230a.html?WT.ec_id=EJHG-201105, in English); third, that the modern Turks are a really mixed bunch: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1469-1809.2011.00701.x/abstract.

On the original subject, yes, I agree. It moves too fast. But not fast enough for my greedy purposes.

NewbieOne · Jul 10, 2012

I agree that conversions are too fast. I've had conversions happen within months of conquering a province and without my chaplain actively trying. Just look at the rate conversions happen in my AAR. Then again, I've had provinces refusing to budge for many years (and conversions were definitely slower in my previous game).

Is there any specific effect of character piety, holy wars being fought etc.?

As for high DNA carry-overs, that's normal in Europe. There's a huge bunch of Celtic DNA in modern English people, for example. Cultural and linguistic assimilation or amalgamation, even connected with a conquest, did not really entail a massive change of the DNA ethnic make-up. Previous inhabitants weren't exactly slaughtered.

unmerged(223666) · Jul 10, 2012

Well I must be bugged then because its 25 years I have owned a province and still hasn't converted. As an arab I dont care beacsue extra tax except it has a stupid amount of rebels when they pop.

I find it you give it to someone else it converts so much quicker even without your help.

Faeelin · Jul 10, 2012

tvremote84 said:
I've always thought, and this would be hard to implement without being "deterministic", that religion during this time period was much more tied to culture than the game represents. When the Turks invaded Anatolia they didn't convert the Greeks, the Greeks simply fled west and Anatolia became Turkish muslim.

You might want to look at what Turkish Turks look like compared to Central Asian Turks.

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Religious Conversion too fast ?

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