'de ' for welsh?

Orinsul said:

for the generated dynasties. Does it make sense? Everything ive read about welsh language [though none of it about the middle ages always centuries before or after] has never used de for of. Either its 'of' or 'o' or 'y'

I assume its just that historically they were conquered by the normans and the normans used de, but is there anything actually welsh to it?

And if not, any thoughts or suggestions? i think Scottish does it too.

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All Celtic cultures use "de", but I think Breton is somewhat more understandable. You would think the Scots and Irish would use something more like "of", "av", or "af" than "de" seeing as how they got raided by a bunch of Vikings.

I think it changes based on the culture your married with at the time.

Have noticed this also. Thought it was odd because "de" is more of a french or spanish thing. The irish name are often right though, placing "Ua" in the names often and the first names are usually very celtic. But I still see "de" used alot for the Irish even, and always for Welsh and Scottish.

Of course, it makes sense when they use "de" instead given the normans and their influence, but for immersion it would be nice if the names were more typical of actual celtic.

De is used for Irish in the game, even though de was only ever used for translations of Norman names, i.e. De Búrca (de Burgh).

Problem as I see it, is native Irish names are almost wholly patronymics in origin, whereas the game is trying to portray all base born individuals as having toponymics. Perhaps for towns it would me more accurate to use craft names in the Irish case, such as mac gabhann, mac an tsaoir etc.

riadach said:

De is used for Irish in the game, even though de was only ever used for translations of Norman names, i.e. De Búrca (de Burgh).

Problem as I see it, is native Irish names are almost wholly patronymics in origin, whereas the game is trying to portray all base born individuals as having toponymics. Perhaps for towns it would me more accurate to use craft names in the Irish case, such as mac gabhann, mac an tsaoir etc.

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Arab cultures have dynasties named after the founder. Perhaps this can be used instead for some Celtic groups (name the Gaels), seeing as how Mac means "son of" and "O" means descendant of (or grandson of)

dauncosony said:

Arab cultures have dynasties named after the founder. Perhaps this can be used instead for some Celtic groups (name the Gaels), seeing as how Mac means "son of" and "O" means descendant of (or grandson of)

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I don't think that's necessary.

Welsh is normally ap meaning son of. Some were de after the norman invasion, not anything to do with Britons.

This gives you an idea of how Welsh names became anglicised and vice versa. Also look on Wikipedia on Anglicisation.

http://www.amethyst-night.com/names/welshsurs.html

Wales is a right hotchpotch of cultures near the borders and coast but centrally the families go back hundreds of years with little changes and some still use old Welsh naming structures.

Well, "de" is Latin (in which case it does not become d', du, di, des, da etc. like in other languages), so it could be default for everybody Catholic.

Back at the time folks were de, von, of/af or any other such depending on which language they were talking in (or being talked about). Toponyms etc. weren't formalised legal names.

Orinsul said:

Would not have any prefix work?The the four branches, Pwyll Lord of Annwn, it was written as Pwyll Pen Annwfn, that is with the of just being skipped entirely.
Surely that would make more sense for the celtic cultures than de.
After all one of the historical dynasties in the game is Carmarthen [a place with nothing preceding it] so that gives precedent to dynasties being named after places just having the place as the name.

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That works for dudes in Scotland too.

You have to remember the politics of people naming themselves also in Wales. The Welsh difference in culture from castle to countryside was massive and still is now from the cities on the coastal regions and borders to rural Wales where I live.

What they did name wise to ingratiate themselves and make themselves more appealing to "English" lords etc in later mediaeval periods didn't have anything to do with most of Wales. You would have found lots of Anglicisation near those areas and yet 20 miles lnland relatives with the same family tree would be called something totally different.

Look at the Dinefwr family, one of the oldest in Wales. Most were ap. But a bloke born in Ammonford wouldn't be ap unless he was mayors son or something. He would be Pwyll Jones af Ammonford.

So to me it should be ap for gentry, or ab in a few cases and af town/holding for everyone else.

King of the Britons, mostly aps : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_of_the_Britons

Then ap. Problem is when your merging cultures, as there isn't a melting pot for each culture.

This may have already been fixed, but Drachenfire's CK I mod covered this.

"Ap" is just terrible (it's a patronymic and only used for your immediate father). "De" is even worse.

Since you're talking about kinship groups (cenedl), you're not looking at any of that: you're looking at the old-school tribal names like Cuneddion, Coeling, Morgannwg (which are hard to form because they're Modern Welsh forms of Old Welsh adaptations of Medieval Latin endings like -ianus and -iensis, but see here for lots of examples) or (more often) you're looking at naming them for their seats. The name of their home goes immediately after the personal name (no de), as in the historic names of the dynasties: Aberffraw (Norwallia), Dinefwr (Demetia), Mathrafal (Powys).

Historically, you only get names like Edwin Tegeingl, Owain Gwynedd, and Owain Cyfeiliog when there was some other guy the bards had to distinguish, but that's still where you'd look to come up with lineage names like this. Wales was very class obsessed, so few or no "surnameless" families would show up at court: instead, you'd have the lords of the cantrefs and commotes and royal cousins hold the positions. So, start with those and if you still need more "surnames", look at the castle lists here and just use the Welsh names.