Economic Benefits of Slavery

[Rikeus]

So I've been playing as USA, and I've just got up to the civil war event, and I'm trying to decide which side I should take. Since the main difference between the two are whether or not slavery is supported, it got me wondering what sort of effects slavery actually has on the country. Obviously if people become more liberal they might start militant abolitionist movements and such, but I mean economically. Do slave pops function any differently to farmers/laborous in RGO's? Do they make the RGO's more profitable? Also, can slaves vote along with the rest of the poor strata with universal voting enabled?

[moldeh]

'Hey, that's racist!'

Yeah but no, slavery isn't good for your economy.

[Klausewitz]

Slaves do not vote and IIRC they do not consume as much (may consumer base exploded when i abolished slavery as Brazil), they also cannot upgrade to craftsman or really anything.
What slaves are, in a nutshell, are low consum, non-convertible farmer pops. Free them and let them slave in your factories instead.

[chals]

there shoud be some Good thing about them.. OR give other pops money...

[Klausewitz]

Why?
At the State level, where you are, they offer no benefit.
They pay no tax, no do not consume, they do not vote.
The Aristos who own the RGOs, those you can tax, but then again you cannot tax them as high as workers, since capitalists are in the same income bracket and those you want to tax as little as possible so they build factories.
It also is not as though PI had somehow nerfed slavery for moral reasons. Slavery makes enough sense in an agrarian society, which you want to leave behind, but no sense in an industrialized society, which you want to achieve.

[Jorlaan]

I remember reading some months ago about slaves having a significantly lower output that farmers. Seeing as you can't tax and they can't produce as much, it really it best to abolish slavery. Turn them into farmers so they can be unhappy for the same reasons as everyone else :P

[ilikepie]

The main difference between the two is whether or not you want to be USA with all it's holdings, or just the southern part of it. Whichever flag you like better/colour, wins. In my civil war game 2 years after the war as CSA, 12 percent wanted to outlaw slavery so I did

[chals]

Even IN an industrial state, there is Very clear advanges of slaves.. And beside the moral Reasons, the shoud be very strong reasons to keep slaves.. And slaves shoud among other things bring MORE stuff in as farmers then farmers do.. They dont get time of and so on

[moldeh]

Even IN an industrial state, there is Very clear advanges of slaves.. And beside the moral Reasons, the shoud be very strong reasons to keep slaves.. And slaves shoud among other things bring MORE stuff in as farmers then farmers do.. They dont get time of and so on

Neither do they, unless you pass the crappy social reforms.

[Fenrir 1576]

They shouldn't have close to the economic output as free citizens, they're being forced to work against their will for bare minimum conditions with the looming possibility of being separated from loved ones, really some of the most physically and psychologically horrible conditions one can work under. As a result they basically did everything they could to reduce productivity, from working as slow as they could, while still avoiding harassment , to outright sabotage of equipment in order to prevent having to work.

[Hibernian]

As far as I'm aware, Slave POPs produce approximately the same as Farmers but consume nothing at all, which can be good for a agriculture based economy (especially for Uncivs), but the major disadvantage is that they will never be part of the industrial economy, i.e. they are not consumers. So your factories and other POPs can't sell to them which depresses the economic potential of the country. So in summary Slaves are good for primitive countries but bad for advanced ones.

[chals]

They shouldn't have close to the economic output as free citizens, they're being forced to work against their will for bare minimum conditions with the looming possibility of being separated from loved ones, really some of the most physically and psychologically horrible conditions one can work under. As a result they basically did everything they could to reduce productivity, from working as slow as they could, while still avoiding harassment , to outright sabotage of equipment in order to prevent having to work.

Its all Great, but feelings and you accept the fact they they can chose to do so.. Wich they con not. In real life, they used to give much to the soundhen economy.. And did not get hiret when they where freed ether.. but mostly staved and shit..

[Klausewitz]

Its all Great, but feelings and you accept the fact they they can chose to do so.. Wich they con not. In real life, they used to give much to the soundhen economy.. And did not get hiret when they where freed ether.. but mostly staved and shit..

Slaves can and could choose.
When you read up for more than a casual glance you happen upon a lot more than 'work to the bone and nothing else'.
Independent culture, independent income (yes, slaves could have savings), limited rule of law (as in: There are certain penalties that are established and accepted. Should one overseer overstep these he might find himself the only white man among a very hostile population of 500 blacks who have ways of killing him without condemning themselves), etc.
There is also the fact that a person who is told to work and forced will hardly ever be as productive as a person exploiting him/herself for his/her own gain, children ,etc.
It is true, they did give much to southern economy, especially low wage labor force that could not migrate, sparing the plantation owners the hassle of competing with the North for the workforce, but then again today there a still large agricultural complexes in the US requiring large, low wage workforces. They just use illegal aliens from Latin America these days.
Slavery works, as does Serfdom.
Nobody doubts that.
But if your industry is putting out large quantities of cheap goods you need somebody to buy them.
If your workforce is unable to earn money (therefore unable to spend money) you lack a marketplace for these goods.

[Thanik]

Slaves have no needs at all, so they are always happy -> 100% luxury needs. Also when you are liberal and have full citizenship they are happy again -> their main issues. And almost all income goes to a aristocrats.

But from the other side they have no needs, and they have less education rate -> they slow your progress, both industrial and technological.
Ideally when you can move them to empty RGO that you need(coal, iron, sulhpur), but you can't and usually they produce only farm products...

[bbasgen]

Slaves provide an economic benefit to slave holders. While we tend to think of large southern landowners as the only slave owners, around 20% (depending on time period) of Southerners were slave owners, typically with a very small number. Economically, therefore, you have on the one hand obvious advantages going in game terms to aristocrats. But, what economic value do Aristocrats provide in the game? It begins and ends with their RGO: they won't go beyond that. For other slave owners, slaves worked in industry, domestic service, etc.

Slaves working in industry are obviously profitable to the factory owner: they are unpaid and safety and other factors are less likely to be factored in. Slaves should be able to work in factories in the game, but it would come at a heavy price: to gain significant profits a fairly large ratio of slaves would be needed. This should in turn raise the consciousness and militancy of laborers, who are completely disenfranchised by slave labor and frankly are at risk of becoming de facto slaves themselves. This leads to a very difficult balancing act of slave rebellion: at some point the number of slaves is too great to keep them slaves and deny their liberty. For these reasons and many more, in a general sense, slavery leads to economic stagnation.

[Klausewitz]

But why would anyone slave labor for factories when you can just smoke up one labourer after the other for just wages.
A slave would have to be pretty cheap to be able to compete with a worker which the factory owner can work hard and then fire when production drops.
Could never do that with a slave unless they would come EXTREMLY cheap.

[Fenrir 1576]

Historically slaves weren't cheap in the slightest, on average an adult male capable of doing any significant amount of manual labour would cost hundreds of dollars, a massive investment that most slave owners weren't willing to risk on such dangerous work as that found in factories. Why risk a slave you've poured so much into when you could just as easily convince a newly arrived immigrant to work for pennies without any assurance of safety? Frankly the poor immigrant communities in the north were as wary of freeing the slaves as southern slave holders, as it meant a new group they would have to compete with in the already crowded labour market. Also, concerning the southern population, most were subsistence farmers, and any and all slaves they had were probably working with them in the fields, or if they weren't adult males they were in the house helping with chores (since the game only counts adult males when concerning pops, the household slaves largely wouldn't factor into it, therefore). In these respects I think the game does fairly well at representing the slave population with regards to the US; the only thing I wish they'd add is that upon freeing the slaves, an event should fire that gives craftsmen a pretty big boost in militancy, to represent the reaction of factory workers to the perceived threat of all these newly freed men being added to the labour pool.

[bbasgen]

All good points.

[Klausewitz]

In these respects I think the game does fairly well at representing the slave population with regards to the US; the only thing I wish they'd add is that upon freeing the slaves, an event should fire that gives craftsmen a pretty big boost in militancy, to represent the reaction of factory workers to the perceived threat of all these newly freed men being added to the labour pool.

Though this would only apply IF there is a crowded labour market.