Switzerlands Neutrality

[rmax92]

Is there a way to get around it? I want to conquer it to smoothen my borders.

If not, there should be, countries have ignored neutral status before (Germany-Belgium, 1914 for example).
Obviously there should be a high infamy price and maybe an event to start a war to defend switzerland.

[moldeh]

Well, the reasoning behind this is that you can't justify a war against someone who is neutral. However the real problem is that in ahd you need to justify a a cb to declare war. You should be able to just go 'screw neutrality, I'm don't really give a crap', but I don't know how that would work with the current db justification system.

[calvinhobbeslik]

You can't attack Switzerland in PDM?

[moldeh]

No, they're neutral. They can't attack anybody, either. UNLESS, of course, they decide to cancel their neutrality. But I don't the AI ever does that.

[GeorgeBradavik]

No, they're neutral. They can't attack anybody, either. UNLESS, of course, they decide to cancel their neutrality. But I don't the AI ever does that.

They need to have a high enough military score to get rid of their neutrality. The AI probably isn't going to be able to accomplish that.

[Rylock]

They need to have a high enough military score to get rid of their neutrality. The AI probably isn't going to be able to accomplish that.

Switzerland needs 30 prestige and 50 military score to abandon its neutrality, though the AI won't take the decision unless it's a GP.

[Vishaing]

I don't have the file right now (at work) but I wrote up a quick and dirty event that will pull Switzerland (or any neutral country really) out of any wars or spheres they get into. Would you guys be interested in it if I cleaned it up a little? Because Right now I think the only problem with the Neutrality Mechanic is that it is far too easy for Switzerland to get pulled into a war with someone else via spheres or just good old fashioned alliances.

[Rylock]

I don't have the file right now (at work) but I wrote up a quick and dirty event that will pull Switzerland (or any neutral country really) out of any wars or spheres they get into. Would you guys be interested in it if I cleaned it up a little? Because Right now I think the only problem with the Neutrality Mechanic is that it is far too easy for Switzerland to get pulled into a war with someone else via spheres or just good old fashioned alliances.

If you're using the end_war command, that's easy enough to replicate-- my only question would be whether it only ends Switzerland's participation in the war or whether it cancels the entire war outright even if they're not the war leader.

[Vishaing]

My experience was that the way I was doing it only removed Switzerland from the war. From what I remember, the case that made me make the event was me (as Austria, who else?) fighting off France and Sardinia-Piedmont. France had Sphered Switzerland, so since France started the war the Swiss came along for the ride. After the event fired the Swiss went back home and I went back to pounding the crap out of France and Sardinia-Piedmont.

I imagine that if the sole War-Goal of the War was against Switzerland it would end the war entirely, but I don't see how that can happen given present limitations, and even if it does it sounds right to me.

This should probably be paired with some AI Changes to make sure the AI doesn't try to sphere Switzerland (thus wasting their time), but I don't know how to do that.

[Rylock]

This should probably be paired with some AI Changes to make sure the AI doesn't try to sphere Switzerland (thus wasting their time), but I don't know how to do that.

We can't make the AI not sphere Switzerland. Considering there are other benefits for sphering (such as access to markets), I don't see a problem with that.

Upload your event and I'll take a look at it.

[Vishaing]

country_event = {
	id = 999999
	title = "Neutrality"
	desc = "Though We have committed ourselves to Neutrality, forces have conspired to pull us into the sea of international politics..."
	picture = "Demonstration"
	
	trigger = {
		has_country_modifier = neutrality
		is_greater_power = no
		OR = {
			war = yes
			part_of_sphere = yes
		}
	}
	
	mean_time_to_happen = {
		months = 24
		modifier = {
			factor = 0.001
			war = yes
		}
	}
	
	option = {
		name = "We must remain Neutral!"
		sphere_owner = { diplomatic_influence = { who = THIS value = -100 } }
		any_country = { end_war = THIS leave_alliance = THIS }
	}
}

I Never said it was very complex, it was originally just intended for my personal use to stop the Swiss winding up fighting me.
I was considering adding a second option that could both keep the neutral country in the war and also remove the neutrality modifier, but I never did. Did Victoria 2 ever implemented limits on Event Options?

[The Turk2]

I really hope this can be implemented into the next PDM version! All too often for example Switzerland gets dragged into a war against Austria or Germany (when they are in France's SoI), and then they proceed to be conquered completely. So it would be nice if they could stay out of wars completely, plus it would make wars in the region more interesting without the help of Switzerland.

[Rylock]

I Never said it was very complex, it was originally just intended for my personal use to stop the Swiss winding up fighting me. I was considering adding a second option that could both keep the neutral country in the war and also remove the neutrality modifier, but I never did. Did Victoria 2 ever implemented limits on Event Options?

No, there's no way to limit event options.

Insofar as the event goes, I don't think I would remove the influence-- like I said before, there are benefits to having a country in sphere other than them being an automatic ally. You'd also want to prevent the AI from continuously trying to re-sphere Switzerland after it's been booted out. But having Switzerland drop out of wars wouldn't be a terrible idea.

[rmax92]

If not, there should be, countries have ignored neutral status before (Germany-Belgium, 1914 for example).
Obviously there should be a high infamy price and maybe an event to start a war to defend switzerland.

Can anyone comment on the possible implementation of this?

[Naselus]

Can anyone comment on the possible implementation of this?

I've thought about it, but the infamy cost would need to be prohibitive - like 50 or more - and the War Justification system makes it hard to do it properly (you'd need to make sure it gets 'caught' when infamy was high, and sometimes people would get away with violating neutrality for free).

[Rylock]

Trying to make it so that you could use any wargoal against someone who is neutral, but at prohibitive cost, would require another version of every CB which could be used-- quite elaborate for one country, especially considering this is only something the player should ever do.

The easiest way to implement this would be to have a decision (ie. "Violate Neutrality") which a country could invoke which adds a load of infamy but which also adds a qualifier to the "NOT = { has_country_modifier = neutrality }" clause in every CB so they may be used. Either that or, even easier, it removes Switzerland's neutrality (which might make sense, considering that would more or less show Switzerland that it's neutrality doesn't work).

[Connor Mulhern]

Trying to make it so that you could use any wargoal against someone who is neutral, but at prohibitive cost, would require another version of every CB which could be used-- quite elaborate for one country, especially considering this is only something the player should ever do.

The easiest way to implement this would be to have a decision (ie. "Violate Neutrality") which a country could invoke which adds a load of infamy but which also adds a qualifier to the "NOT = { has_country_modifier = neutrality }" clause in every CB so they may be used. Either that or, even easier, it removes Switzerland's neutrality (which might make sense, considering that would more or less show Switzerland that it's neutrality doesn't work).

and so it is not a decision taken lightly, maybe make it so you must border the swiss and have -100 relations?

[rowanquigley]

Since countries in the past have been able to get away with invading neutral territory, I think maybe a random chance of not being severely punished afterwards would work, occasionally you might succeed with minimal worries whereas you could be invaded by three nations in three different directions. Oh well, just my two cents.

[Coyote808]

Since countries in the past have been able to get away with invading neutral territory, I think maybe a random chance of not being severely punished afterwards would work, occasionally you might succeed with minimal worries whereas you could be invaded by three nations in three different directions. Oh well, just my two cents.

I also think that Neutrality should also be an option for all other countries as well, but maybe with a player only limitation if you want to play as a truly neutral nation without, say, the French generating a CB on a player controlled Belgium or the Netherlands.

[|MC|]

I'm not sure I like the idea of any nation being able to declare themselves as neutral. Switzerland got away (And gets away) with their neutrality because it's been their policy for literally centuries. Not many nations in V2 can boast that, and I don't think a nation suddenly declaring neutrality simply because it's a player wanting a peaceful game for themselves would make sense or be terribly respected by the international community.

Then again, if there were tough to reach triggers like a very pacifist-supporting population with a pacifist nation in power (to such degree that it needs to be worked for and not just an accident) could be okay. Maybe. I think I remember this neutrality conversation happening elsewhere in the PDM forum and either Rylock or Nas said they didn't want to do that though. I could be wrong about that though.