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Thread: Couple of Questions (Normans in Italy? Flanders laws?)

  1. #1

    Couple of Questions (Normans in Italy? Flanders laws?)

    I've just started playing CK2 (I have SoI installed, no mods), and I'm really loving it. However, I've run into some questions:

    1) It looks like the rulers of southern Italian regions (plus Sicily) are classified as Normans. They all have names like William and Geoffrey. This is as true with a late-scenario start as it is from day one. This can't be WAD, can it?

    2) In early game starts, the Duke of Flanders owes allegiance to the King of France, but his laws (such as changing rules of succession) are determined by the crown authority policies of the HRE. Is this WAD? I do notice that Flanders is covered by the HRE in the "De Jure Empires" map filter, but his liege is definitely France.

  2. #2
    Colonel sir Eyeball's Avatar
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    1Southern Italy and Sicily was inhabited by Normans in this time-period so that is quite accurate.
    2 ???
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    Sir Eyeball

  3. #3
    2) is definitely WAD -- your crown laws are determined by your De Jure liege, not De Facto liege.

    1) is...probably not WAD, but I don't know that much about the history of Sicily. I know it was Norman through most of the game's time period, though.

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    Lt. General Voy's Avatar
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    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norman_...southern_Italy

    Are you afraid that one minute on Wikipedia might enlighten you? Read a book sometime, please...

    Duke of Flanders is de jure Holy Roman Empire and it works as intended. See for yourself by switching mapmode to de jure empires.

    Edit: Good people have posted before me.

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    Captain Apelstav's Avatar
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    1. Well, as people have mentioned the Normans under the d'Hauteville line did conquer and form the kingdom of Sicily, which then remained in their hands until the inheritance of Friedrich II (of the German Hohenstaufen line) if I recall correctly and then to the d'Anjou branch of the Capets, which is all in the game if you flip through the years, so it goes Norman-German-Frankish, at least in my game.

    2. This is a gameplay thing - difference between de-jure and de-facto vassals.
    I sometimes attempt this whole AAR-writing thing:

    From the Baltic Sea arises 'The Red Griffin' - a narrative/history-book AAR as Sweden [On hold awaiting the release of M&T]

  7. #7
    Thanks for the helpful replies, almost everyone!

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    Second Lieutenant surihtanil's Avatar
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    Normans did conquer southern Italy its accurate. Yes they had names like Roger, Henry, William, Godfrey etc.

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    Committed Anti-P'doxian Sleight of Hand's Avatar
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    Regarding southern Italy, some of you may find this post interesting.
    Yeah, well... sometimes nothin' can be a real cool hand.

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  10. #10
    Like sicilian, I can say that the game is accurate. The Normans (Hauteville) did conquest southern Italy and Sicily.

  11. #11
    Sig Sig Sputnik Supermoderator Veldmaarschalk's Avatar
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    The thing that could be considered inacurate about the Normans is that they don't have Norman names, but the English version of their names.

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    Committed Anti-P'doxian Sleight of Hand's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Veldmaarschalk View Post
    The thing that could be considered inacurate about the Normans is that they don't have Norman names, but the English version of their names.
    The same is true of Scottish culture, which I've reported.
    Yeah, well... sometimes nothin' can be a real cool hand.

    HERSHEY'S: MORE SUSTAINING THAN MEAT (fact)

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  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Voy View Post
    Read a book sometime, please...
    Pssh, books. Not everyone is literate you know. There are podcasts on Normans now. It's like a return to oral tradition.

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    Field Marshal Thure's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Veldmaarschalk View Post
    The thing that could be considered inacurate about the Normans is that they don't have Norman names, but the English version of their names.
    How are the names in Norman? I wish to have any source with Old Norman or Norman names... Is this list okay?

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Veldmaarschalk View Post
    The thing that could be considered inacurate about the Normans is that they don't have Norman names, but the English version of their names.
    emu'd

    But it's intended and there's a good reason for that. The reason being that... well... normans ruled England. They've been given english names so that when William takes over England, both he and his prodigy have English names. In other words, no, normans are not supposed to have english names but it's the lesser of two evils (the other one being english monarchs with wrong names).

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    Sig Sig Sputnik Supermoderator Veldmaarschalk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thure View Post
    How are the names in Norman? I wish to have any source with Old Norman or Norman names... Is this list okay?
    Looks good

    But as Moldeh says, it is better for gameplay to leave them as English names. Since that is how they are mostly known.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sleight of Hand View Post
    The same is true of Scottish culture, which I've reported.
    This and the 'English' Norman names are WAD though.

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    Committed Anti-P'doxian Sleight of Hand's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Veldmaarschalk View Post
    This and the 'English' Norman names are WAD though.
    Unfortunately so, and especially since Welsh and Irish names are in their correct languages. Scottish just looks... neglected.
    Yeah, well... sometimes nothin' can be a real cool hand.

    HERSHEY'S: MORE SUSTAINING THAN MEAT (fact)

    R.I.P. Peter O'Toole

  18. #18
    Lt. General Voy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lac du Bois View Post
    Pssh, books. Not everyone is literate you know. There are podcasts on Normans now. It's like a return to oral tradition.
    That's good to hear.

  19. #19
    Its sort of sad that I find lame that someone would be surprised by Norman control over the Sicilies in the Middles Ages. Not that this level of ignorance should be seen as a good thing, but because I have to admit, typing a strong rebuttal on this topic while continuing to ignore the fact that half my whole extended friend network hasnt got the faintest clue about the basics of modern domestic politics is pretty darn silly and counterproductive.

    So in short, no, its not a bug, its perfectly reflective of reality. And I wont tell you to learn your history, either. Best to prioritize modern reality... But once/if thats done, the fine points of history are sure a fun extra to look at Norman control over the Sicilies had HUGE historical impact, and may well be the pivotal reason why the Holy Roman Empire ultimately lost it's grasp on it's native cradle of Italy. It's not a point to be glossed over!

  20. #20
    The Flanders thing is wrong since Flanders should really be in de jure France like it was in the original build. The Frisians never went as far as Flanders which was always one of the most important bits of France until the Burgundian inheritance after the game's time frame.

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