Ottoman Empire Question

[Connor Mulhern]

I also think that one could add the big population of Alevis into the OE for added flavor and reflect multiculturalism.
Plus, it should be noted that the Young Turks were actually well-educated elite and the majority of the Ottoman Empire consisted of backwards peasants and a very diverse pool of ethnical elements who lived their own way of life. Therefore, a populist rising/revolution without drastic conditions (losing the World War) should not be plausible for the common folk. Events or modifiers to increase ethnical discontent and clashes are perfectly accurate.

Yes, one of my best friends in turkey was an alevi kurd (ethnically, not culturally). The Ottomans are too uniform

As one can see after the Turkish War of Independence, reactionary elements still did try to violently topple the fledgling democratic state. So to sum it up, these facts should rule out any potential communist or fascist turning point for the nation (even though it is fun to see Köylü ve Amele Fırkası in power ).
Similar to the posts above, I could foresee three non-wacky scenarios:

Yes, they tried to topple it up until the modern day(Gray Wolves). There should be events for fascist uprisings, as there are plenty of turks nowadays with reactionary and fascist ideas (The nationalist party comes to mind)

1) Modernizing the empire (possibly with foreign assistance paid with land/money/rise of militancy) and holding on to cores

[/QUOTE]Need to be tough to do though

2) A dismantled empire turning into a republic as it happened in real life (afterwards some event driven reforms such as the transition to Latin alphabet, dress code, abolishing the Caliphate, standardization of the education system etc.)

I know, there needs to be more events to make it more modern, but the alphabet would have to be only when a national state existed, as no sane sultan would try to latinize arabic

3) A completely dismantled region shared by regional powers commanded by greater powers (a GP-sphered Greece keeping Izmir, Thrace and Istanbul, winning GPs taking over puppet states in the Levant, a greater Armenian state sphered by the Russians in Eastern Anatolia and a small Kordestan again sphered by some GP in the Southeast)

I know, the current dismantling event is not good enough

An alternative, but not very plausible scenario could be that after the country first switched to a multi-party state by Turkish nationalists taking over, fundamentalist and reactionaries could come to power and the country could become a small backwards kingdom.

Well, either way it should be represented by a one party state with chances for liberals (ataturk like) fascists (a more extreme version of ataturk) commuards (could happen) and conservatives (sultan supporters)

To actually implement these without using complex event chains, maybe you could try to modify the dismantling event of the OE, reduce CON for accepted cultures (to reflect the backwardness and conservative outlook of the Anatolian population) while increasing militancy for other cultures. You could also add a few small events after the country becomes Turkey to represent Atatürk's reforms.

Also, ethnic clashes, and religion

[Rylock]

If someone wishes to suggest how the Ottoman Empire dismantling event can be changed, I'm open to it-- but keep in mind that making it much more complex (as in even more variations) than it already is isn't likely to happen. If you don't believe me, crack open the GreatWarEvents file and take a look at what I had to wrestle just to get it to its current state. This doesn't mean I won't consider changes at all, but there is a point where "good enough" will need to be just that.

[Connor Mulhern]

This is what I based my idea off of
http://www.warchat.org/pictures/seco...f_anatolia.jpg.
Balkan territory would be divided along the conf. of Berlin with Russian Terms, although albania is not a vassal, and with greece also obtaining east and west macedonia, cores are removed from all but Rumelia and West Macedonia


OK, so simply put, there needs to be cores removed from all but Aleppo, Malatay, Kars, Giresun, Ankara, Bolu, Konya, Bursa, Izmir, Cyprus, Aegean Islands (Minus cyclades), east macedonia, Thrace, Rumelia, and East Macedonia for turkey, if they are already not there do not add them.The rest of the area is partitioned among modern borders, and randomly handed out as vassals to states with a peace treaty that are great powers, except for the mosul region, Malatay minus Van and Dayr al-zour, which is given as a direct holding to one random great power

Now you need to expand the georigan cores to cover the entire kars region, and it would be released upon the defeat of the ottomans, or the territory would be added to an existing georgia.

Armenia would get Erzurum, Trabzon, Van, and Erzican

If greece participated in the war, they gain Ederine, Izmir, and Mansina, with a core added to Ederine, as well as any cores

Any other great powers get either the Konya region, or Adana, Marash, Antep, and Antinoch. If there is too little, the region is not handed out. If there are too many it is random. Maybe also add Cyprus as another, if Turkey controlled it and the greeks did not participate in the war

Now here is the interesting part, a New country, called the Borphrus zone, it has no cores, but it controls the rest of thrace, Bursa, Izmit canakkale, and balik(s)eir. It has British as a primary culture, with Turkish, Greek, Bulgarian, and Albanian all accepted.

Now basically, if the countries wait long enough, Turkey loses cores on them. But they all receive a nationalist agitation modifier, so basically, there is going to be uprisings like crazy, to simulate the turkish war for independence. If the manage to capture and rejoin, then the country who controlled it before loses the cores. Eventually, if turkey does not gain it back, Kurdistan is released. I dont know if you could remove cores, but if not, it will just the the nationalist agitation modifier ending

[Rylock]

Well, what I set up originally is what actually happened with regards to Ottoman dismantling... not the original plan for the treaty.

Which means its cores are reduced to its modern borders (as well as Cyprus), and the Levant area (Syria, Lebanon, Palestine, Jordan and Iraq) are released and vassalized to a random treaty GP. There is currently a percentage chance that Armenia and Kurdistan get released, otherwise it's a standard dismantling where all cores are returned to existing countries and all civilized cores are released.

As for the differences in what you proposed:

* The areas inside Anatolia (other than those given to Greece and Armenia) were not annexations-- they were occupation zones. So I don't think I would hand them out to other countries.

* The Bosphorus Zone-- as a new country? No, I won't add a tag for that.

* Georgia -- why would they get the additional two provinces in Kars? They get Batum, but they have no pops in the other two or any reason to claim them.

* Armenia -- The provinces you name would be roughly what was planned to give to them, yes. Currently if Armenia is released it gets all its cores. I could limit it to those four, though it would require a special event to do so. Not sure that's worth it, though, to be honest.

* Greece -- Hard to say whether Greece should get those mainland provinces. They didn't end up with them, after all. They would get them if Greece had fired the Megali Idea, however.

[Connor Mulhern]

Well, what I set up originally is what actually happened with regards to Ottoman dismantling... not the original plan for the treaty.

Which means its cores are reduced to its modern borders (as well as Cyprus), and the Levant area (Syria, Lebanon, Palestine, Jordan and Iraq) are released and vassalized to a random treaty GP. There is currently a percentage chance that Armenia and Kurdistan get released, otherwise it's a standard dismantling where all cores are returned to existing countries and all civilized cores are released.

I know you had similar events, so I decided to put in my own modification

As for the differences in what you proposed:

* The areas inside Anatolia (other than those given to Greece and Armenia) were not annexations-- they were occupation zones. So I don't think I would hand them out to other countries.

I know they were occupation zones, but the areas were basically controlled by the French and Brits, the cities were locked down. Maybe give them a random province or two in Turkey?

* The Bosphorus Zone-- as a new country? No, I won't add a tag for that

Thought so, I knew you would only add 1 extra tag at most

* Georgia -- why would they get the additional two provinces in Kars? They get Batum, but they have no pops in the other two or any reason to claim them.

Because I know you hate tags and that is where the South West Caucasian Republic should be. The tag should be added, or something

* Armenia -- The provinces you name would be roughly what was planned to give to them, yes. Currently if Armenia is released it gets all its cores. I could limit it to those four, though it would require a special event to do so. Not sure that's worth it, though, to be honest.

Honestly, I think you should be reducing armenian cores overall, most of them were fairly assimilated, and I dont know why the non-kurdish anatolian pops are so big

* Greece -- Hard to say whether Greece should get those mainland provinces. They didn't end up with them, after all. They would get them if Greece had fired the Megali Idea, however.

They are non cores, and only if they participate in the war, or have fought with them recently, plus the uprising, so they probably wont hold on to them.

[Rylock]

Because I know you hate tags and that is where the South West Caucasian Republic should be. The tag should be added, or something

Never heard of it, though there's a lot of small countries around that area-- and the South West Caucasian Republic was also Armenian culture, controlled by Armenians who held the area as it was coming out of Russian rule. So no reason it shouldn't just be Armenian tag. If it was a different culture, that might be different.

Honestly, I think you should be reducing armenian cores overall, most of them were fairly assimilated, and I dont know why the non-kurdish anatolian pops are so big

Well, this is the area claimed by Armenian nationalists even now. And other than the provinces you marked as the South West Caucasian Republic, the only core province not already on your list for Armenia is Bitlis.

Insofar as the pops go, that's the levels which Vic2 set them at. No idea if they're accurate, but prior to the ethnic cleansing the Kurdish and Armenian pops in those areas were supposedly quite large.

They are non cores, and only if they participate in the war, or have fought with them recently, plus the uprising, so they probably wont hold on to them.

That wouldn't be too hard to do. So, yes, I can add that.

[Hibernian]

Never heard of it, though there's a lot of small countries around that area-- and the South West Caucasian Republic was also Armenian culture, controlled by Armenians who held the area as it was coming out of Russian rule. So no reason it shouldn't just be Armenian tag. If it was a different culture, that might be different.

I think this article explains this "country": Provisional National Government of the Southwestern Caucasus, it actually wasn't Armenian, but Turkish and perhaps Kurdish and Azeri. It think it was an attempt by the Turks in the city of Kars to avoid being taken over by Armenia during the chaotic period when neither the Ottoman nor Russian governments had any control over the area (since there was revolutions breaking out all over the place). It wouldn't have lasted long in any case, as it would have joined Turkey if given the change, so I don't think it needs its own tag though, simply having a Turkish core there is enough. The Bosphorus definitely doesn't need a tag either, as the area would either have been taken over by Turkey or Greece, or just ruled as a colony by one of the GPs.

BTW, the Armenian cores are based on Wilsonian Armenia and in addition, wherever the Armenian POPs are at the start.

[Connor Mulhern]

Never heard of it, though there's a lot of small countries around that area-- and the South West Caucasian Republic was also Armenian culture, controlled by Armenians who held the area as it was coming out of Russian rule. So no reason it shouldn't just be Armenian tag. If it was a different culture, that might be different.

Yes, they speak a different dialect, but I guess it is not quite different enough to give it its own tag. I would however, put a core for azerbaijan in Kars, and add some azeri pops, the area is still even claimed by some extreme azeri nationals

Well, this is the area claimed by Armenian nationalists even now. And other than the provinces you marked as the South West Caucasian Republic, the only core province not already on your list for Armenia is Bitlis.

Yeah, I felt that was more kurd, and anyway, the whole reason I said the armenian territory was too big was I thought there was a core on sivas, my mistake

Insofar as the pops go, that's the levels which Vic2 set them at. No idea if they're accurate, but prior to the ethnic cleansing the Kurdish and Armenian pops in those areas were supposedly quite large.

THAT NEVER HAPPENED, Ok, now that I got the turkish part of me satisfied, they are fairly accurate, but I would add some azeris to kars, the dialect over there is about half turkish half azeri, and that is after several hundred years of turkification.

That wouldn't be too hard to do. So, yes, I can add that.

I am contributing =D

snip

Trust me dude, there is a lot of cultural differences between western Turkey and the black sea trabzon area. It probably isint enough for a new pop, but it is something to consider. As a friend of mine once said, "The only difference between the trabzonies and kurds is that the trabzonies are loyal".There should be some azeri pops in kars though.

[Hibernian]

Trust me dude, there is a lot of cultural differences between western Turkey and the black sea trabzon area. It probably isint enough for a new pop, but it is something to consider. As a friend of mine once said, "The only difference between the trabzonies and kurds is that the trabzonies are loyal".There should be some azeri pops in kars though.

Well cultural differences aside, they do still speak the same language right? Or is it a dialect of Turkish? Kurds on the other had speak a completely different language from a separate language family, so I don't really see how you can conflate them (they may very well have similar cultures of course, I don't know about that). As for an Azeri core on Kars, well maybe, but it would mean that Azerbaijan could revolt from the Ottoman Empire with a single province and if they revolt from Russia or Iran (the far more likely scenario) they'd have to take all of Kars region to get it. But anyway, how many Azeris would you put in the province and what religion are they (Shiite I assume, yes?).


Anyway I've just been looking at the Armenian cores again, and I think there could be a few changes made. Firstly, get rid of their core on Giresun (884), there's hardly any Armenians there and I think I was just wrong on the borders when I put that there (I though it was part of Wilsonian Armenia, but I think now that it probably isn't really).

You could do something with the Armenians in Cilicia though, currently I just put Armenian cores there, but if they ever actually gain independence that would give them control of almost all Eastern Anatolia from the Black Sea to the Med, which is perhaps too much. Also there's the problem of Armenian rebels perhaps not being able to liberate those areas, so you could create a separate tag for the Cilicia Armenians. Just call the country Cilicia (or "Kilikia", that's what it is in Armenian, I think) and give it cores on Adana (894), Marash (896) and Antep (898). It would be basically a revival of the medieval Armenian Kingdom of Cilicia.

Even if you don't do that though, I think there should be an Armenian core on Antep (I think that was left out as an oversight).

Edit: Oh also, you could have an event for the unification of Cilicia with Armenia if they both exist, under certain circumstances.

[Connor Mulhern]

Well cultural differences aside, they do still speak the same language right? Or is it a dialect of Turkish? Kurds on the other had speak a completely different language from a separate language family, so I don't really see how you can conflate them (they may very well have similar cultures of course, I don't know about that). As for an Azeri core on Kars, well maybe, but it would mean that Azerbaijan could revolt from the Ottoman Empire with a single province and if they revolt from Russia or Iran (the far more likely scenario) they'd have to take all of Kars region to get it. But anyway, how many Azeris would you put in the province and what religion are they (Shiite I assume, yes?).

I would just turn the turkish pop in kars into a azerbaijani http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...rilanguage.png, shiite would be the religion, as the border of the Ottoman was full of Shia, I would also MAYBE consider making azeris an accepted pop for the ottomans and visa versa. I mean the main differences between the two languages are that azeri is a bit more literal, and the vowel harmony is a bit different.

Anyway I've just been looking at the Armenian cores again, and I think there could be a few changes made. Firstly, get rid of their core on Giresun (884), there's hardly any Armenians there and I think I was just wrong on the borders when I put that there (I though it was part of Wilsonian Armenia, but I think now that it probably isn't really).

Lastest version of PDM there is no core there...

You could do something with the Armenians in Cilicia though, currently I just put Armenian cores there, but if they ever actually gain independence that would give them control of almost all Eastern Anatolia from the Black Sea to the Med, which is perhaps too much. Also there's the problem of Armenian rebels perhaps not being able to liberate those areas, so you could create a separate tag for the Cilicia Armenians. Just call the country Cilicia (or "Kilikia", that's what it is in Armenian, I think) and give it cores on Adana (894), Marash (896) and Antep (898). It would be basically a revival of the medieval Armenian Kingdom of Cilicia.

Should not be there to start, but if Armenia claims all its cores it should be able to claim it if you unite all of armenia, like the greater sebria decision. Give it cores on Adana, Marash, Antep, plus the rest of the Malatya region

Even if you don't do that though, I think there should be an Armenian core on Antep (I think that was left out as an oversight).

There are no connecting provinces dude, how would that work in gameplay terms

[Hibernian]

I would just turn the turkish pop in kars into a azerbaijani http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...rilanguage.png, shiite would be the religion, as the border of the Ottoman was full of Shia, I would also MAYBE consider making azeris an accepted pop for the ottomans and visa versa. I mean the main differences between the two languages are that azeri is a bit more literal, and the vowel harmony is a bit different.

You want to turn all the Turks in Kars into Azeris? That seems a bit extreme, there was definitely some Turks there, wasn't there? I'd say turn half of the Turks into Azeris, which would give them 25% of the population of the province. Maybe give them a core there as an Irredentist thing, only if they are already independent.

Lastest version of PDM there is no core there...

Should not be there to start, but if Armenia claims all its cores it should be able to claim it if you unite all of armenia, like the greater sebria decision. Give it cores on Adana, Marash, Antep, plus the rest of the Malatya region

There are no connecting provinces dude, how would that work in gameplay terms

Ah, I was looking at version 3.0.5 which had all the Armenian cores that I originally added, Rylock has obviously removed a lot of them in 3.0.6, without saying so (there's no mention of it in the Changelog at least).

I can't say I agree with the removal of Armenian cores from Hakkari (892), Diyarbakir (893), and Malatya (889), there are significant Armenian populations there which would be part of any general Armenian revolt. Without those areas this essentially leave Armenia with just Wilsonian Armenia, which makes sense in terms of what Armenia should look like if the Ottomans get dismantled in a Great War, but doesn't make sense more generally. I think those areas should have Armenian cores from the beginning. If it's a worry that they overlap with the Kurdish cores, well yes, but that's what's supposed to happen in this region since some many ethnic groups are living in the same areas (they can fight it out if they gain independence).

Ok so to recap (this is mostly for Rylock), I think you should put the Armenian cores back on Hakkari, Diyarbakir and Malatya from the start, but don't include those areas in Armenia if the Ottoman Empire get's dismantled in a Great War (just give them the current areas they have cores on in 3.0.6), allow that to become part of Kurdistan. Then if Armenia becomes independent that way they can try to capture the rest of their cores as irredentism, but if they become independent on their own (through successful rebellion) they should be able to get it all. Now the Cilician area (Adana, Marash and Antep) should either have a separate Armenian tag, or just give the cores out to Armenia after it becomes independent. That would be a sensible setup I think.

[Rylock]

We have pretty good information on what the Armenians consider to be their territory. It would be nice if Vic2 had the Vic1 method of having the "must secede" territory versus the "can secede" territory-- or at least the ability for pops outside their territory to join a nationalist uprising-- but it doesn't. Considering there are significant Greek pops living all over Anatolia and we don't add cores for them either, I don't think adding more Armenian cores is really called for. There are Armenians living outside of their homeland.

Claiming cores once they exist, however, is a different story.

As for Cilicia, cores could be added for it, certainly, if there were some evidence of nationalism in the last 500 years since it was destroyed. Near as I can tell, that really doesn't seem to be the case.

[Connor Mulhern]

We have pretty good information on what the Armenians consider to be their territory. It would be nice if Vic2 had the Vic1 method of having the "must secede" territory versus the "can secede" territory-- or at least the ability for pops outside their territory to join a nationalist uprising-- but it doesn't. Considering there are significant Greek pops living all over Anatolia and we don't add cores for them either, I don't think adding more Armenian cores is really called for. There are Armenians living outside of their homeland, end of story.

Claiming cores once they exist, however, is a different story.

As for Cilicia, cores could be added for it, certainly, if there were some evidence of nationalism in the last 500 years since it was destroyed. Near as I can tell, that really doesn't seem to be the case.

Maybe an event that if they gain their cores back, I mean they did claim that area during the paris peace conference

Also, apparently the area "managed to preserve its armenian character throughout the years." Maybe have it in there, I mean an uprising is still unlikely, but possible

[Mikeboy]

Perhaps it would be a good idea to add Cilicia cores at game start but then have them later be removed as an incentive for the Ottomans/Turkey to give up some of its own cores outside of Turkey proper?

[Hibernian]

We have pretty good information on what the Armenians consider to be their territory. It would be nice if Vic2 had the Vic1 method of having the "must secede" territory versus the "can secede" territory-- or at least the ability for pops outside their territory to join a nationalist uprising-- but it doesn't. Considering there are significant Greek pops living all over Anatolia and we don't add cores for them either, I don't think adding more Armenian cores is really called for.

I certainly agree it would be good to have something like the old VIC1 system, or some other changes to the system, but anyway. I don't agree that we know that the Armenians didn't consider those areas to be their territory, quite the opposite in fact, there was a very broad sense of where "Armenia" was, which generally could mean any area where Armenians were living, or any area previously part of the ancient and medieval Armenian kingdoms (Kingdom of Armenia).

As for the Greeks around Anatolia, does the Megali Idea not already give Greece cores on those areas? It should and it did in VIC1. There was even the Republic of Pontus during the same era we're discussing, you could certainly either give Greece cores there or create a new tag for those people.

There are Armenians living outside of their homeland.

No, no they're not. The Armenians living in Istanbul and western Anatolia are living "outside their homeland" and were immigrants to that area, the Armenians living in Hakkari, Diyarbakir and Malatya, etc, were the native populations of those areas and had been living there for over 2,000 years. I assure you, they would have said it was their homeland (it was other peoples homeland as well, of course). Don't bother with the modern map (United Armenia.png) or even Wilsonian Armenia.gif, take a look at the map that the Armenian delicates presented to the Paris Peace Conference in 1919: Armenia in Paris Peace Conference 1919.jpg. Now obviously not all that area was justifiable Armenian, but the areas I mentioned do have significant Armenian POPs and a long history as part of historical Armenia, so there's really no justification to take cores away from there and leave them in other areas.

Claiming cores once they exist, however, is a different story.

As for Cilicia, cores could be added for it, certainly, if there were some evidence of nationalism in the last 500 years since it was destroyed. Near as I can tell, that really doesn't seem to be the case.

Yeah well then just do it the way I suggested. Either give them all the cores at the start, or maybe add the Cilician cores after they're independent. As for Cilician nationalism, there probably wasn't one as distinct from general Armenian Nationalism, but there was a plan by the French to create a state for them there after the collages of the Ottomans, which is where the idea comes from, if you don't want Armenia to have the cores there instead.

[barisakbay]

May I kindly request excluding words like "ethnic cleansing" while talking about the modern history of Turkey? As you all know, this is a very controversial and sensitive issue with several opposing views from debating parties which may or may not lead to real life consequences. I don't think it is appropriate to discuss such an issue here.

[Rylock]

May I kindly request excluding words like "ethnic cleansing" while talking about the modern history of Turkey? As you all know, this is a very controversial and sensitive issue with several opposing views from debating parties which may or may not lead to real life consequences. I don't think it is appropriate to discuss such an issue here.

Fair enough-- and sorry, I wasn't making any sort of claim I was just referring to the armenian/kurdish pops and that was the phrase that wikipedia used, but I should have chosen my words more carefully.

[barisakbay]

No offense taken, Rylock. I really appreciate your efforts in trying to make a realistic mod as possible.

Fair enough-- and sorry, I wasn't making any sort of claim I was just referring to the armenian/kurdish pops and that was the phrase that wikipedia used, but I should have chosen my words more carefully.

[Connor Mulhern]

No offense taken, Rylock. I really appreciate your efforts in trying to make a realistic mod as possible.

At the same time us turks must admit that there was some loss of population of non turkish and kurdish minorities, via "ethnic cleansing" or simple emmigration

As for the Greeks around Anatolia, does the Megali Idea not already give Greece cores on those areas? It should and it did in VIC1. There was even the Republic of Pontus during the same era we're discussing, you could certainly either give Greece cores there or create a new tag for those people.

I think giving it any cores outside trabzon would be seriously pushing it though, that was the only area with a population that greece could really lay claim to.

[EMT0]

Rylock, I have to question not having Albanians, and yes, possibly even Armenians, as accepted POPs. Historically, Armenians were the Ottoman's most reliable subjects; many Armenians served in high positions, and their church was officially recognized and I believe, had it's own patriarch, independent of the Greek Orthodox patriarch in Constantinople. Armenians were titled 'The Most Loyal Subjects of the Empire' and had many privileges other non-Christians did not receive. They were so privileged by the Ottomans, that they opposed the Tanzimat reforms because it equalized the other Christians of the Empire to their level.

As for Albanians, or really any Muslims, the Ottoman Empire was a state that revolved around its monarchy. Turks were not favored by the Ottomans more or less than any other Muslim, and all Muslims were equal in the eyes of Ottoman law and in society. The language that was spoken by the Ottoman aristocracy was a variant of Turkish that derived heavily from Persian and was apparently near incomprehensible to the average Turk in Anatolia.

The biggest difference between Muslims, I'd say, would depend on whether they were from a core or peripheral region of the empire. Albanians, Balkan Turks, and Muslim Balkan peoples(mainly Greeks and Bulgarians) were the most prominent appointees in the Ottoman government while Kurds, Arabs(with the possible exception of Syrians), Bosniaks, and Anatolian Turks were much more sparsely represented in the upper echelons of government.

Basically, I'd argue for making Albanians accepted POPs, and possibly Armenians. Maybe some modifier that affects non-accepted POPs in Armenian-heavy state, giving them a lowered militancy bonus, perchance?