If someone wishes to suggest how the Ottoman Empire dismantling event can be changed, I'm open to it-- but keep in mind that making it much more complex (as in even more variations) than it already is isn't likely to happen. If you don't believe me, crack open the GreatWarEvents file and take a look at what I had to wrestle just to get it to its current state. This doesn't mean I won't consider changes at all, but there is a point where "good enough" will need to be just that.
This is what I based my idea off of
Balkan territory would be divided along the conf. of Berlin with Russian Terms, although albania is not a vassal, and with greece also obtaining east and west macedonia, cores are removed from all but Rumelia and West Macedonia
OK, so simply put, there needs to be cores removed from all but Aleppo, Malatay, Kars, Giresun, Ankara, Bolu, Konya, Bursa, Izmir, Cyprus, Aegean Islands (Minus cyclades), east macedonia, Thrace, Rumelia, and East Macedonia for turkey, if they are already not there do not add them.The rest of the area is partitioned among modern borders, and randomly handed out as vassals to states with a peace treaty that are great powers, except for the mosul region, Malatay minus Van and Dayr al-zour, which is given as a direct holding to one random great power
Now you need to expand the georigan cores to cover the entire kars region, and it would be released upon the defeat of the ottomans, or the territory would be added to an existing georgia.
Armenia would get Erzurum, Trabzon, Van, and Erzican
If greece participated in the war, they gain Ederine, Izmir, and Mansina, with a core added to Ederine, as well as any cores
Any other great powers get either the Konya region, or Adana, Marash, Antep, and Antinoch. If there is too little, the region is not handed out. If there are too many it is random. Maybe also add Cyprus as another, if Turkey controlled it and the greeks did not participate in the war
Now here is the interesting part, a New country, called the Borphrus zone, it has no cores, but it controls the rest of thrace, Bursa, Izmit canakkale, and balik(s)eir. It has British as a primary culture, with Turkish, Greek, Bulgarian, and Albanian all accepted.
Now basically, if the countries wait long enough, Turkey loses cores on them. But they all receive a nationalist agitation modifier, so basically, there is going to be uprisings like crazy, to simulate the turkish war for independence. If the manage to capture and rejoin, then the country who controlled it before loses the cores. Eventually, if turkey does not gain it back, Kurdistan is released. I dont know if you could remove cores, but if not, it will just the the nationalist agitation modifier ending
Well, what I set up originally is what actually happened with regards to Ottoman dismantling... not the original plan for the treaty.
Which means its cores are reduced to its modern borders (as well as Cyprus), and the Levant area (Syria, Lebanon, Palestine, Jordan and Iraq) are released and vassalized to a random treaty GP. There is currently a percentage chance that Armenia and Kurdistan get released, otherwise it's a standard dismantling where all cores are returned to existing countries and all civilized cores are released.
As for the differences in what you proposed:
* The areas inside Anatolia (other than those given to Greece and Armenia) were not annexations-- they were occupation zones. So I don't think I would hand them out to other countries.
* The Bosphorus Zone-- as a new country? No, I won't add a tag for that.
* Georgia -- why would they get the additional two provinces in Kars? They get Batum, but they have no pops in the other two or any reason to claim them.
* Armenia -- The provinces you name would be roughly what was planned to give to them, yes. Currently if Armenia is released it gets all its cores. I could limit it to those four, though it would require a special event to do so. Not sure that's worth it, though, to be honest.
* Greece -- Hard to say whether Greece should get those mainland provinces. They didn't end up with them, after all. They would get them if Greece had fired the Megali Idea, however.
As for the differences in what you proposed:
Well, this is the area claimed by Armenian nationalists even now. And other than the provinces you marked as the South West Caucasian Republic, the only core province not already on your list for Armenia is Bitlis.Honestly, I think you should be reducing armenian cores overall, most of them were fairly assimilated, and I dont know why the non-kurdish anatolian pops are so big
Insofar as the pops go, that's the levels which Vic2 set them at. No idea if they're accurate, but prior to the ethnic cleansing the Kurdish and Armenian pops in those areas were supposedly quite large.
That wouldn't be too hard to do. So, yes, I can add that.They are non cores, and only if they participate in the war, or have fought with them recently, plus the uprising, so they probably wont hold on to them.
Provisional National Government of the Southwestern Caucasus, it actually wasn't Armenian, but Turkish and perhaps Kurdish and Azeri. It think it was an attempt by the Turks in the city of Kars to avoid being taken over by Armenia during the chaotic period when neither the Ottoman nor Russian governments had any control over the area (since there was revolutions breaking out all over the place). It wouldn't have lasted long in any case, as it would have joined Turkey if given the change, so I don't think it needs its own tag though, simply having a Turkish core there is enough. The Bosphorus definitely doesn't need a tag either, as the area would either have been taken over by Turkey or Greece, or just ruled as a colony by one of the GPs.
BTW, the Armenian cores are based on Wilsonian Armenia and in addition, wherever the Armenian POPs are at the start.
Anyway I've just been looking at the Armenian cores again, and I think there could be a few changes made. Firstly, get rid of their core on Giresun (884), there's hardly any Armenians there and I think I was just wrong on the borders when I put that there (I though it was part of Wilsonian Armenia, but I think now that it probably isn't really).
You could do something with the Armenians in Cilicia though, currently I just put Armenian cores there, but if they ever actually gain independence that would give them control of almost all Eastern Anatolia from the Black Sea to the Med, which is perhaps too much. Also there's the problem of Armenian rebels perhaps not being able to liberate those areas, so you could create a separate tag for the Cilicia Armenians. Just call the country Cilicia (or "Kilikia", that's what it is in Armenian, I think) and give it cores on Adana (894), Marash (896) and Antep (898). It would be basically a revival of the medieval Armenian Kingdom of Cilicia.
Even if you don't do that though, I think there should be an Armenian core on Antep (I think that was left out as an oversight).
Edit: Oh also, you could have an event for the unification of Cilicia with Armenia if they both exist, under certain circumstances.
Last edited by Hibernian; 05-07-2012 at 10:46.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...rilanguage.png, shiite would be the religion, as the border of the Ottoman was full of Shia, I would also MAYBE consider making azeris an accepted pop for the ottomans and visa versa. I mean the main differences between the two languages are that azeri is a bit more literal, and the vowel harmony is a bit different.
I can't say I agree with the removal of Armenian cores from Hakkari (892), Diyarbakir (893), and Malatya (889), there are significant Armenian populations there which would be part of any general Armenian revolt. Without those areas this essentially leave Armenia with just Wilsonian Armenia, which makes sense in terms of what Armenia should look like if the Ottomans get dismantled in a Great War, but doesn't make sense more generally. I think those areas should have Armenian cores from the beginning. If it's a worry that they overlap with the Kurdish cores, well yes, but that's what's supposed to happen in this region since some many ethnic groups are living in the same areas (they can fight it out if they gain independence).
Ok so to recap (this is mostly for Rylock), I think you should put the Armenian cores back on Hakkari, Diyarbakir and Malatya from the start, but don't include those areas in Armenia if the Ottoman Empire get's dismantled in a Great War (just give them the current areas they have cores on in 3.0.6), allow that to become part of Kurdistan. Then if Armenia becomes independent that way they can try to capture the rest of their cores as irredentism, but if they become independent on their own (through successful rebellion) they should be able to get it all. Now the Cilician area (Adana, Marash and Antep) should either have a separate Armenian tag, or just give the cores out to Armenia after it becomes independent. That would be a sensible setup I think.
We have pretty good information on what the Armenians consider to be their territory. It would be nice if Vic2 had the Vic1 method of having the "must secede" territory versus the "can secede" territory-- or at least the ability for pops outside their territory to join a nationalist uprising-- but it doesn't. Considering there are significant Greek pops living all over Anatolia and we don't add cores for them either, I don't think adding more Armenian cores is really called for. There are Armenians living outside of their homeland.
Claiming cores once they exist, however, is a different story.
As for Cilicia, cores could be added for it, certainly, if there were some evidence of nationalism in the last 500 years since it was destroyed. Near as I can tell, that really doesn't seem to be the case.
Last edited by Rylock; 05-07-2012 at 19:04.
Also, apparently the area "managed to preserve its armenian character throughout the years." Maybe have it in there, I mean an uprising is still unlikely, but possible
Last edited by Connor Mulhern; 05-07-2012 at 18:46.
Perhaps it would be a good idea to add Cilicia cores at game start but then have them later be removed as an incentive for the Ottomans/Turkey to give up some of its own cores outside of Turkey proper?
Amanda Shaw, Secretary of the Interior (b. 1890)
in BigBadBob's The Presidents 1836-1936 an Interactive V2 AAR
Alfonz Aljaz of the State of the South Slavs (b. 1800)
in theAhawks's A Federation of "Equals"
Empire's dead, the issues inherent with creating a functional mod of that timespan are just too much.
Kingdom of Armenia).
As for the Greeks around Anatolia, does the Megali Idea not already give Greece cores on those areas? It should and it did in VIC1. There was even the Republic of Pontus during the same era we're discussing, you could certainly either give Greece cores there or create a new tag for those people.
United Armenia.png) or even Wilsonian Armenia.gif, take a look at the map that the Armenian delicates presented to the Paris Peace Conference in 1919: Armenia in Paris Peace Conference 1919.jpg. Now obviously not all that area was justifiable Armenian, but the areas I mentioned do have significant Armenian POPs and a long history as part of historical Armenia, so there's really no justification to take cores away from there and leave them in other areas.
May I kindly request excluding words like "ethnic cleansing" while talking about the modern history of Turkey? As you all know, this is a very controversial and sensitive issue with several opposing views from debating parties which may or may not lead to real life consequences. I don't think it is appropriate to discuss such an issue here.
Rylock, I have to question not having Albanians, and yes, possibly even Armenians, as accepted POPs. Historically, Armenians were the Ottoman's most reliable subjects; many Armenians served in high positions, and their church was officially recognized and I believe, had it's own patriarch, independent of the Greek Orthodox patriarch in Constantinople. Armenians were titled 'The Most Loyal Subjects of the Empire' and had many privileges other non-Christians did not receive. They were so privileged by the Ottomans, that they opposed the Tanzimat reforms because it equalized the other Christians of the Empire to their level.
As for Albanians, or really any Muslims, the Ottoman Empire was a state that revolved around its monarchy. Turks were not favored by the Ottomans more or less than any other Muslim, and all Muslims were equal in the eyes of Ottoman law and in society. The language that was spoken by the Ottoman aristocracy was a variant of Turkish that derived heavily from Persian and was apparently near incomprehensible to the average Turk in Anatolia.
The biggest difference between Muslims, I'd say, would depend on whether they were from a core or peripheral region of the empire. Albanians, Balkan Turks, and Muslim Balkan peoples(mainly Greeks and Bulgarians) were the most prominent appointees in the Ottoman government while Kurds, Arabs(with the possible exception of Syrians), Bosniaks, and Anatolian Turks were much more sparsely represented in the upper echelons of government.
Basically, I'd argue for making Albanians accepted POPs, and possibly Armenians. Maybe some modifier that affects non-accepted POPs in Armenian-heavy state, giving them a lowered militancy bonus, perchance?