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  1. #1
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    Ottoman Empire Question

    It's come up a few times before that the current transition from the Ottoman Empire to Turkey is a bit unfair, and that ideally there would be an alternate path for the OE to become a sort of "multicultural confederation" as some liberals of the time envisioned.

    Now, I've seen a few of the events that were written to try and address this-- most recently Orinsul's events in the tweakpack-- and the main problem with them is they mostly rely on adding every culture within the OE as accepted (whether all at once or individually). Thing is, that's incredibly overpowered. Not only are those cultures likely to rebel afterwards, the amount of military units the OE can recruit from those cultures skyrockets. So I'm wondering what the solution is, and to that end it might be good to open a conversation about it. I don't pretend to have any special knowledge of the Ottomans, after all, other than what Wikipedia tells me.

    Currently, the OE has a few decisons/events not related to the Oriental Crisis and the Congress of Berlin:

    * Tanzimat Reforms: decision that reduces militancy and con in non-Turkish pops, available when the OE is still absolute monarchy and both general militancy and consciousness raise above 3.

    * Kanun-i-Esasi: decision that reduces militancy and raises con, grants +5 prestige, available upon researching Nationalism & Imperialism.

    * The "Young Ottomans" event, which fires around 3 years after the Kanun-i-Esasi decision is fired if the OE is still absolute monarchy and liberals have 10% support. If the Young Ottomans' demands for reform are refused, there's a bonus to militancy and con for liberals as well as a bump in their landed voting support. If agreed, the OE gets the landed voting reform (making it Prussian Constitutionalism) and there's a bump in militancy and con for reactionary pop (and a reduction in the same for liberals). Historically this fledgling democracy only lasted a few years until the sultan revoked it (until the Young Turk revolution in 1908) but none of that's modeled as events.

    How often are these events seen? I'm not sure. Either way, the transition from the Ottoman Empire to Turkey is a bit more complicated than that... and currently the only thing that's provided is an event that fires should the OE ever be a non-monarchy which removes Bedouin, Mashriqi and Kurdish as accepted cultures and removes all cores outside of modern Turkey. A bit simplistic, perhaps, primarily as Turkey really lost most of those cores as a result of both the Congress of Berlin and their dismantling after WW1. So perhaps that part of it could even be set aside in favor of dealing with the cultural struggle-- some might say the OE's reforms came too late, but perhaps it might have been possible for the country to become a progressive monarchy. And what should happen if the monarchy is overthrown?

    I have some thoughts on this, but I'll hold off in case anyone has some of their own first.

  2. #2
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    For me there is, with my limited reading on the subject and my emphasis on game play rather than historical accuracy, three choices for the OE essentially based around which faction manages to gain the upper hand.

    The most likely route is the current route of decline and revolution, the only changes i would make is who is in power after the revolution. As with any overthrow it is rarely A vs B and more often A vs b+c+d+e with bcde also fighting amongst themselves, so an alternative to the historical outcome would be a luxurious bonus.

    The next most likely route would me the military take over, (with Prussian help?) which would lead to strong gains on the military tech but lead to much more militancy in the empire. As funds are drawn off to pay for increased spending the economy would slowly dwindle, nationalism based on the resentment of heavy handed military officials and the worsening economic situation would result in numerous revolts. In effect the empire would shrink rapidly as the army would be fighting multiple wars on different fronts, but would gain a small modern army, a very small arms industry, an alliance and huge debt to Prussian.

    The least likely route would be the Sultan regains real power and enacts the 'enlightened empire' dream. Focusing on economic and multiculturalism (ottoman style i.e. were all equal but the sultan and court are just a little more equal) the military would suffer greatly due to lack of spending and the 'removal' of any political opposition to the Sultan's plan. While the economy grows members of the court will try to take control resulting in a lot of forced removals of officials and alienating the aristocracy. Far flung outposts of the empire will try to gain independence via diplomacy with the enlightened Sultan, where unsuccessful there's the possibility of revolt. So better economy, small outdated military, lots of militancy in soldiers/officers/aristocracy with medium sized empire with a few more accepted cultures and the possible alliances/sphereing of newly independent former states.

    But hey that's just my random thoughts.
    Last edited by macscarfe; 30-06-2012 at 13:11. Reason: edited for early morning spelling
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  3. #3
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    Sadly I don't know much about the Ottoman Empire as well. But I think the Sultan should try to befriend with the Arabs after the Ottomans loose most of their European holdings. Kinda like the Austro-Hungarian compromise.

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    Ok, so I lived in Turkey for a year and studied modern turkish history, so this would be my area of expertise. Now, for the most part, the European populations would never be accepted, and there should probably be some modifier to slow down "Turkification" in Europe. At this point the Empire was looking not towards Russia and the Austrians for new land, bu the middle east. Now one of the main issue with the Ottomans right now is that the balkans are far too stable, there should be CONSTANT revolts against the Ottomans, they should never really have complete control. Maybe have a modifier for non-Muslim provinces (So Albania and Bosnia would be fairly stable). To chip away at the Ottoman military and prevent really conscription in the Balkans. This should not be as strong as the existing nationalist modifiers, but fairly strong. These could be removed by crushing the orthodox resistance, IE taking over of puppeting Serbia or Greece, but that would be unlikely for the AI (Romania must also remain under your control). Maybe there could even be a way to increase the defection speed for provinces controlled by Rebels.

    Now the next issue would be representing the cultural decline of the Empire. Maybe have some negative modifiers that slows down the development of tech. I can think of a couple straight off, Arab alphabet, and the religious controlling science, plus the non-Muslims being unable to become soldiers (Maybe have a modifier on non Turkish pops decreasing the amount of soldiers), the tax on non muslims. There are many more, but this is just to show how behind the Ottomans were. Some of these could be represented as simple tech penalties, and the rest are fairly self explanatory.

    Now there should be a slow collapse in Europe, with an expansion in the middle east. They should try to expand into Egypt if possible, and MAYBE gain cores on some Arab areas. This should give them the possibility to remain a great power, but it is unlikely. They should also maybe gain cores on Azerbaijani areas if they expand up there as well? Now there are three main possibilities from here, and slow collapse and military revolution that leads to a modern Turkey. (First the government is overthrown by the Young Turks, which push Turkish nationalism, which angers all pops, which leads to revolutions all over the place, which after enough territory is lost it simply becomes an enlarged turkey (some islands, larger homeland, something like this http://mapsof.net/map/greater-turkey with azerbaijani becoming an accepted pop, and ALL others being removed. The other possibility is collapsing in a great war, and becoming a "Smaller Turkey' (Lots of territory given to minor powers). Losts of Cores lost, and accepted being removed, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partiti...Ottoman_Empire, but with the possibility of an independence war to take back territory. Another is a modernization ending with Turks keeping control of their middle-eastern territory, and the Last in an extremely successful Ottoman empire that takes back egypt, gains cores, modernizes, and goes crazy!

    There could be several powers trying to gain influence in Turkey, so they might help it modernize, reforming and gaining tech based on the assisting countries current tech. So maybe a "Call for help" event that fires for all great powers if turkey wants help modernizing, with most saying we dont need it, but a few trying to gain influence assist. It could cause them to gain territory and a strong alliance, (Forced joining of wars maybe, or lose tech?) but they would have to give tech to the empire and subsidize it as well

  5. #5
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    Also, maybe include the possibility of a "Pan turkic" state if Turkey exists or the arab revolt is taking place, an Russia has just lost a great war and has a truce with Turkey where Turkey gains cores on all of the Turkic areas, a and gives the arabs/balkans independence.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Connor Mulhern View Post
    Also, maybe include the possibility of a "Pan turkic" state if Turkey exists or the arab revolt is taking place, an Russia has just lost a great war and has a truce with Turkey where Turkey gains cores on all of the Turkic areas, a and gives the arabs/balkans independence.
    I think that's way too big of a leap, IMO. The only thing they have in common is a language family, culturally they are distinct, and also do not even share borders, unless you count the Caspian Sea as one. I don't think the Ottomans/Turks could go that route unless you slap history aside and have the Ottomans gain an event chain VERY early on in which they fund and arm the people of Central Asia against Russian expansionism. But the problem with that would be the Sultans were never truly in a position to do that, in a situation in which they would be, would most likely occur once the oil boom occurs, way past the time were it would be possible/plausible to fund a Turkic insurgency that leads to pan-Turkism.

    I also don't think you guys give the possibility of a reinvigorated Ottoman Empire enough credit in plausibility. Do any of you frequent AH.com, by any chance? There are some very good threads on there that discuss where the Ottomans went wrong and what could have been done to change that. For example, Bulgaria. The Ottoman Empire's center was in the Balkans, for they were a Balkan-based empire. Anatolia was never their powerbase until the end of the 19th century. The areas which the Ottomans controlled in 1890:



    tended to be (relatively) stable and had enough of a Muslim population base that Ottoman rule was entrenched. Bosnia (was) up until it was lost as well, but Bosnia tended to be a backwater/outpost to the Ottoman core, from what I've read. I don't think it'd be farfetched at all, based on what I've seen other people argue, to have the Ottomans retain most if not all of their Balkan possessions. Granted, this'd require a capable, farsighted ruler and it would have to avert the disaster of the Russo-Turkish war, but if the Ottomans were to win, I think they'd be too entrenched to be pushed out by anything less than complete defeat.

    The Ottomans could not make any significant gains in the Balkans however. The most I could see them do in a position of absolute dominance would be to confine Greece to the mainland and take ALL of the Aegean islands, forcibly integrate Wallachia, possibly Moldavia(which would incur the wrath of Russia, result in a war, and would require the Ottomans to WIN. If Austria was stable enough as well, I'd imagine they'd intervene too), and (maybe) repuppetize Serbia to the extent of basically being the Vanilla V2 equivalent of a substate. Maybe substate Greece or conquer Transylvania if they got really, really aggressive and had the backing of the winning Great Powers after a Great War. Anything else(Dalmatia, Hungary, and beyond) is lost to them at this point. The Crimea and the Caucuses are a different matter, however.

    This is of course a best-case scenario of absolute win and awesome where the Ottomans can do no wrong and probably draws too far into being out of place.

    EDIT: My map isn't showing

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by EMT0 View Post
    I think that's way too big of a leap, IMO. The only thing they have in common is a language family, culturally they are distinct, and also do not even share borders, unless you count the Caspian Sea as one. I don't think the Ottomans/Turks could go that route unless you slap history aside and have the Ottomans gain an event chain VERY early on in which they fund and arm the people of Central Asia against Russian expansionism. But the problem with that would be the Sultans were never truly in a position to do that, in a situation in which they would be, would most likely occur once the oil boom occurs, way past the time were it would be possible/plausible to fund a Turkic insurgency that leads to pan-Turkism.
    I know, but by the end that was the goal of the young turks, never really said it would be that stable, but I think it is small possibility that does not require an event chain, this this the azers should be able to be cored
    Quote Originally Posted by EMT0 View Post
    I also don't think you guys give the possibility of a reinvigorated Ottoman Empire enough credit in plausibility. Do any of you frequent AH.com, by any chance? There are some very good threads on there that discuss where the Ottomans went wrong and what could have been done to change that. For example, Bulgaria. The Ottoman Empire's center was in the Balkans, for they were a Balkan-based empire. Anatolia was never their powerbase until the end of the 19th century. The areas which the Ottomans controlled in 1890
    Yeah, it was where the industry was, but early on it was not the miltary power base (no non-muslim remember). I think it is a possibility, but an unlikely one, and I am saying that after having a Turkish girlfriend and living in the country for a year, most Turks would agree the empire was falling apart

    Quote Originally Posted by EMT0 View Post
    tended to be (relatively) stable and had enough of a Muslim population base that Ottoman rule was entrenched. Bosnia (was) up until it was lost as well, but Bosnia tended to be a backwater/outpost to the Ottoman core, from what I've read. I don't think it'd be farfetched at all, based on what I've seen other people argue, to have the Ottomans retain most if not all of their Balkan possessions. Granted, this'd require a capable, farsighted ruler and it would have to avert the disaster of the Russo-Turkish war, but if the Ottomans were to win, I think they'd be too entrenched to be pushed out by anything less than complete defeat.
    Still though, it was fairly unstable and would need tons of reforms for them to hold on
    Quote Originally Posted by EMT0 View Post
    The Ottomans could not make any significant gains in the Balkans however. The most I could see them do in a position of absolute dominance would be to confine Greece to the mainland and take ALL of the Aegean islands, forcibly integrate Wallachia, possibly Moldavia(which would incur the wrath of Russia, result in a war, and would require the Ottomans to WIN. If Austria was stable enough as well, I'd imagine they'd intervene too), and (maybe) repuppetize Serbia to the extent of basically being the Vanilla V2 equivalent of a substate. Maybe substate Greece or conquer Transylvania if they got really, really aggressive and had the backing of the winning Great Powers after a Great War. Anything else(Dalmatia, Hungary, and beyond) is lost to them at this point. The Crimea and the Caucuses are a different matter, however.
    Agreed, although substates must exist at the start of the game, puppet would be the only equivalent

    Quote Originally Posted by EMT0 View Post
    This is of course a best-case scenario of absolute win and awesome where the Ottomans can do no wrong and probably draws too far into being out of place.
    They must have that possibility due to the player, but they should mostly collapse, and it would take a lot of work on the players part to get anywhere

  8. #8
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    Okay, one note of caution here: suggestions must be kept relatively simple. I am not interested in making a dozen event chains, particularly to help the player do things the player is already able to do (such as conquer or puppeting states) or doesn't need (cores in places they'd only reach by virtue of being a player).

    What I am willing to do is adjust the existing Tanzimat/Kanun-i-Esasi decisions and/or offer the OE an alternate path from the one it currently has... if it survives long enough... and deal with how the OE becomes Turkey (and what happens as a result). So please focus on that.

  9. #9
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    Ok, Rylock, here we go. Now first off, the Ottomans should start off as an unciv, I mean if you read the reforms that take place around 1840, the Ottomans DID meet the requirements for what we would call an Unciv. But, for that matter, it should be fairly easy to make it a civ, only requiring one decision, called

    “Initiate the Tanzimāt reforms”.
    Requirements:
    -At peace
    Effects:
    -Civilizes the Ottoman Empire

    Now there should be various “waves” of Ottoman reforms that would slowly remove tech penalties and other negative effects. I will group it into major ones, because there were thousands of tiny reforms.

    Issue Identity Cards: I believe this was historically done during the first Ottoman census. This could remove a small tech penalty, but it would mainly remove the administrative penalty
    Requirements:
    -At peace
    -Peace Treaty with Egypt
    -OR after 1850
    Effects: Removed Adm. Penalty

    Establish Modern Universities:
    Requirements:
    -Have a literacy level above X (Don’t know what would make sense, but it should be done around 1850)
    -OR year is after 1855
    Effects: Removes a huge tech penalty

    Abolish Jizya and Allow non-Muslims into the Army:
    Requirements:
    - Have lost a War in the past five years
    - And year is after 1855
    - OR year is after 1865
    Effects:
    It could remove an event converting all orthodox soldier pops into labourers, but I don’t know if that is viable, otherwise I don’t know

    Nationality Law:
    Requirements:
    - Consciousness is above 3.00
    - And Jizya has been abolished
    - Or Militancy is above 3.00
    - And Jizya has been abolished
    Effects:
    Removed orthodox Oppression modifier that raises militancy in the Balkans ever so slightly

    Then you hit the Ottoman Constitution, which would remain largely the same, but grant two possibilities, one would be to push for a constitutional monarchy, and the other would be to keep power in the hands of the sultan. One would result in the status quo, and the other a Prussian constitutional government with limited voting right.

    Here are other ideas:

    Reform writing system:
    It switches them over to the Latin alphabet, some possible tech bonuses from further integration from the west?

    Have the ability for great powers to support the Ottomans, giving them tech in return for territories (For example, Russia maybe gains territories) and an alliance that would be force evoked or the loss of techs.

    Maybe new cores for a north caucus republic with a new pop,

    and a reworked Great War deconstruction.

  10. #10
    If they're uncived, then they're not a great power. And I don't know if that's a good idea tbh. It would mean (among other things) that they have no starting sphere and that belgium would start off as a gp.

  11. #11
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    The Ottoman Empire cannot be an unciv. That would not only prevent it from being a GP, it would restrict it to possessing only a handful of first tier techs and allow wars by civs to colonize it. Despite what you think of their reforms, that's just not going to fly with the game mechanics.

    And I'm not sure what all the penalties you refer to are-- what tech penalties? What admin penalty? Are you suggesting we create such penalties? Currently the OE has limits on its tech progress by virtue of its overall literacy, but that's about it. Adding penalties on top of its starting position will almost guarantee it collapses (when it almost always does anyhow), although I could certainly see some kind of "oppression modifier" which raises militancy for non-accepted pops, one which could later be removed.

    The OE also allows non-muslims into the army with the normal non-accepted culture penalties... I imagine it might be possible to disallow that, but it would be fairly complex and require disallowing soldier promotion on the pop level (which I don't think is going to fly with Naselus).

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Rylock View Post
    Okay, one note of caution here: suggestions must be kept relatively simple. I am not interested in making a dozen event chains, particularly to help the player do things the player is already able to do (such as conquer or puppeting states) or doesn't need (cores in places they'd only reach by virtue of being a player).

    What I am willing to do is adjust the existing Tanzimat/Kanun-i-Esasi decisions and/or offer the OE an alternate path from the one it currently has... if it survives long enough... and deal with how the OE becomes Turkey (and what happens as a result). So please focus on that.
    I sadly can't help with that My knowledge only goes as far as the longterm geopolitical aspects of the matter and some very broad statements I've made, such as the Ottomans being a Balkans-based empire.

    Based on what I've read though, the Tanzimat was a first step in what could have been full equality in the future for the Ottoman's subjects. I haven't played PDM in a while(waiting on a new computer so I can run games well), but I'm guessing that currently, the current chain of events is designed around the Ottomans' collapse?

    The problem with the Ottomans is that what could have been is heavily debatable. Liberal or Conservative, the empire could have fallen or sustained itself, either way, and it's hard to argue one from the other.

    For the sake of our sanity though, I'd say dividing possibilities into two camps. Ottoman Empire survives(whether it has Bulgarians or Kurds or Arabs as accepted cultures is up to debate) or Ottoman Empire collapses(and becomes Turkey). Maybe placing it into tiers would be best? I'll try to keep it as simple as possible. And again, I'm also not sure as to how it's currently run. I'll also list the tiers from best to worst for the Ottomans. Then I'll describe what could lead to that, then simply it.

    Basically, I'm brainstorming, then going to compress it into something workable. Don't worry Rylock, I'm not that insane :P I'd also suggest skipping down to the part starting in bold, for your sanity.

    1. Ottomans retain their borders in the Balkans and Arabia
    2. Ottomans are pushed back to their pre-Balkan Wars borders and retain Macedonia, Albania, Kosovo, Thessaloniki, etc.
    3. Ottomans are pushed back to their Pre-WWI borders
    4. Modern Turkey, give or take chunks of the Levant and Armenia
    5. Loss of Constantinople/Istanbul; basically lost all lands in Europe
    6. The Megali plan wins, with the possibility of the Great Powers owning chunks of Anatolia

    So, let's call 3 and up the best-case scenarios, 4 and down worst-case. 6 and 1, are really more or less player-based and I'd say, don't focus on them. Sure, you can throw in an event or two to give the world the possibility of seeing that, but there's really no need(even if scenario 6 was scarily close to reality at one point). I believe that the base game already has a decision for the Ottoman capital to move out of Constantinople, so disregard 5. I'm guessing that scenario 4 is already possible, due to it being what happened in OTL, so no need for that. 2 and 3 are the big ones, so I'll detail what I think would be the case in each scenario.

    I think, that for either scenario to occur, the Ottomans cannot truly remain conservative. So they'd have to adapt and be more liberal, and most likely fully accept some of the Balkan nationalities as equals for it to be functional longterm. That means the Tanzimat stays, although the question of when it should be available is variable, IMO. The reason that the Ottoman Empire could not be as liberal as it could have been under the rule of its various Sultans(all of which had liberal leanings in the 19th century, based on what I've read) is due to the conservative elements of its government and society. Usually, these were high ranking Muslims and religious leaders, so conservative muslims POPs should all gain militancy and consciousness whenever a major reform that modernizes the Ottomans occurs.

    The Ottoman Empire, or at the least, Constantinople, was a very cosmopolitan place in that Albanians, Armenians, Turks, and Greeks could all hold high posts(although admittedly, not always the highest). So I think it'd be fair to say that consciousness should increase for all people in the Ottoman Empire whenever a reform occurs, as they tended to not only affect the various nationalities, but also the Turks of Anatolia, which was at the time considered a backwater. An example of that is the abandoning of the turban in favor of the fez. Militancy, however, should be restricted to conservative Muslim POPs, as it was the Muslims who held the most power in government and had a vested interest in the status quo, while at the same time, militancy should fall amongst liberal POPs and non-Muslim POPs. The only problem with what I've outlined is that I don't believe religion can be used as to single out POPs, could anyone tell me? It ca't be done by nationality, as the Ottomans didn't care what a person's nationality was so long as they were a Muslim, when it came to privileges and higher reaches of power.

    Alright, so far, I've determined that all POPs gain consciousness, Liberals and non-Muslims lose militancy, conservative and reactionary Muslims gain militancy, should the Tanzimat be enacted(and probably already how it is, but I'm working from scratch here). Not sure if it's at all possible to do by religion, but it's a step. Now we need to look at the cause of the Russo-Turkish war, which was instability in the Ottoman's lands. Now, I'm not sure how well the Ottoman's Balkan instability is modeled ATM, but I'd suggest giving a flat militancy boost for non-Muslim POPs in the Balkans from the start as a modifier, that can be removed via event. Ultimately though, I'd say forget the actual war and just mod in an event that fires when certain provinces are lost that kicks in additional militancy modifiers on non-Christians, to simulate rising nationalism. Basically, if the Ottomans lose land, militancy should rise amongst non-Muslims in the Balkans to represent their rising nationalist aspirations, because it is apparent to them that they can overthrow their overlord. So, the more land lost = the harder it is for the Turks to maintain hold on the Balkans, which I think is a fair representation of it.



    Okay, so, if you've stumbled through what I've half rambled so far, here's what it's ultimately leading to:

    -The Ottoman Sultans all wanted to reform, to various extents. The aim of these reforms tended to be with the aim of equalizing their subjects regardless of creed and to allow the Ottomans to reinvigorate themselves.

    -(Ignore the rambling below and go straight to the bold before the hyphen to see this point)

    The success of a nationality in gaining their independence essentially spurns other nationalities to become more militant in their demands for independence. Granted, at various points, the primary aim was not independence but autonomy(see Bulgaria), lack of government authority resulting in instability, and therefore causing uprisings(Bosnia, Egypt), or anger at the local government(Serbia). Rarely was independence the goal, and rarely was opposition to the Sultan or the Ottomans as a whole the reason for rebellion. Usually, they movement tended to get hijacked by either a Great Power such as Russia(Bulgaria) or were hijacked by nationalists(Serbia, but don't quote me here, I read this from a non-credible source). But ultimately, this resulted in the rise of nationalism in the Balkans proper, and as Ottoman rule got weaker in the Balkans, more people were inspired by nationalism to revolt.

    So essentially, the more land the Ottomans lose, the higher militancy amongst non-Muslims should be(in the Balkans)

    -I don't truly know enough about the Tanzimat proper to suggest what to add for a rainbows and sunshine scenario, but I can suggest how to get there




    So, here's what I'm proposing in terms of game mechanics:
    -Add a flat militancy modifier to the Ottomans at the beginning of the game to all Balkan non-Muslims. No idea how much exactly, but don't make it too much, here's why:

    -For each Balkan nation independent AND not a puppet, add a modifier that affects the Ottomans adding militancy to POPs of that nationality and a general militancy boost to all Balkan non-Muslims in the Ottoman Empire. For example, Greece. If Greece is independent, have all Greeks within the Ottoman Empire gain +.05 militancy so long as Greece is independent, and have all Balkan non-Muslims gain +.01 militancy.

    -This results in a situation where if the Ottomans remain whole, they are liable to retain their lands, but if they lose land, the possibility of them losing more increases, accurately mirroring what happened amongst the Balkan nationalities IOTL, which was a bit of a domino effect.

    -Have the Tanzimat remove the original flat modifier, meaning that the Ottomans CAN retain their pre-Balkan War or Russo-Turkish war borders, but due to the independent Balkan-state modifiers, the Ottomans can also shrink to their 1914 borders.

    -If the Turks lose everything but Constantinople in Europe, have a modifier trigger that negates all of the other militancy modifiers

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    So, that about covers my proposal for how the Ottoman Empire could operate more historically and give them the possibility of either surviving or dying in a rather simple manner, but I don't know what you could do for the Tanzimat proper...meh, I contributed ideas, and this was the longest post I've done in a LONG time.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rylock View Post
    The Ottoman Empire cannot be an unciv. That would not only prevent it from being a GP, it would restrict it to possessing only a handful of first tier techs and allow wars by civs to colonize it. Despite what you think of their reforms, that's just not going to fly with the game mechanics.

    And I'm not sure what all the penalties you refer to are-- what tech penalties? What admin penalty? Are you suggesting we create such penalties? Currently the OE has limits on its tech progress by virtue of its overall literacy, but that's about it. Adding penalties on top of its starting position will almost guarantee it collapses (when it almost always does anyhow), although I could certainly see some kind of "oppression modifier" which raises militancy for non-accepted pops, one which could later be removed.

    The OE also allows non-muslims into the army with the normal non-accepted culture penalties... I imagine it might be possible to disallow that, but it would be fairly complex and require disallowing soldier promotion on the pop level (which I don't think is going to fly with Naselus).
    Ok, so I guess trying to keep it too backward wouldint work, we want the occasional reemergence by the AI, although I think multi step tazimat reforms make sense. The oppression modifier is a good idea, look at EMT0, his idea would work, although maybe a little simpler and while it is historical, I cna understand why you wouldint want to do something so complex for the Ottomans on a pop level. On another note, while I dont know what to do for the events, here is some ideas for a Turkish national government, a "min-max"

    Now, here is my idea for “Greater Turkey” basically, areas that would have been controlled if Turkey broke apart peacefully, these areas would be Rumelia, East Macedonia, Cyprus, Aegean islands and Aleppo regions. Keep cores on those areas, even in the case of a Conference of Berlin event, as a Turkish national government would have claims on those areas. This is basically what the Turks wanted out of the treaty that established the modern republic.

    Now, the Bursa, Ankara, Konya, Bolu and Giresun regions should remain Turkish heartland, the area that is always retained by Turkey, no other cores can exist there, and that is what it is reduced to in the case of a loss of a dismantling.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by EMT0 View Post
    -Add a flat militancy modifier to the Ottomans at the beginning of the game to all Balkan non-Muslims. No idea how much exactly, but don't make it too much, here's why:
    We can add a country-wide modifier which adds militancy for non-accepted pops-- but not one which affects non-Muslims. If we apply a province modifier which adds militancy, it adds militancy to all pops in the province. Short of using events to add one-time shots to militancy for appropriate pops, that's all we have to work with.

    -For each Balkan nation independent AND not a puppet, add a modifier that affects the Ottomans adding militancy to POPs of that nationality and a general militancy boost to all Balkan non-Muslims in the Ottoman Empire. For example, Greece. If Greece is independent, have all Greeks within the Ottoman Empire gain +.05 militancy so long as Greece is independent, and have all Balkan non-Muslims gain +.01 militancy.
    Like I said, we can't target pops with modifiers that way-- it either has to be all pops in a province or all non-accepted pops across the country. The other option is to have a one-time firing event that occurs if a Balkan nation becomes independent which adds a one-shot boost of militancy to certain pops, but that's it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Connor Mulhern View Post
    Ok, so I guess trying to keep it too backward wouldint work, we want the occasional reemergence by the AI, although I think multi step tazimat reforms make sense. The oppression modifier is a good idea, look at EMT0, his idea would work, although maybe a little simpler and while it is historical, I cna understand why you wouldint want to do something so complex for the Ottomans on a pop level.
    The biggest problem with disallowing non-accepted pops to become soldiers is actually that they would likely become craftsmen. Meaning the OE's industrialization would be much easier.

    Now, here is my idea for “Greater Turkey” basically, areas that would have been controlled if Turkey broke apart peacefully, these areas would be Rumelia, East Macedonia, Cyprus, Aegean islands and Aleppo regions. Keep cores on those areas, even in the case of a Conference of Berlin event, as a Turkish national government would have claims on those areas. This is basically what the Turks wanted out of the treaty that established the modern republic.
    I don't think the OE loses cores on the areas you name as a result of the Congress of Berlin, actually-- just other areas outside of that. And it depends on which version of the Congress occurs, as well-- either of which the OE can refuse (in which case they lose no cores). While the reduction in Turkish cores as a result of a dismantling is easy enough to achieve, I'm curious whether the OE turning into Turkey would also result in them losing any cores. Perhaps instead of the current reduction to modern Turkey cores they could have some kind of option.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rylock View Post
    The biggest problem with disallowing non-accepted pops to become soldiers is actually that they would likely become craftsmen. Meaning the OE's industrialization would be much easier.
    Could there be an event that fires every people of months that converts soldier pops to farmers, I thought you did something similar with the Irish brigade decision but instead of doing soldier to farmer you did farmer to soldier. But I agree, slower industrialization before loss of soldier pops

    Quote Originally Posted by Rylock View Post
    I don't think the OE loses cores on the areas you name as a result of the Congress of Berlin, actually-- just other areas outside of that. And it depends on which version of the Congress occurs, as well-- either of which the OE can refuse (in which case they lose no cores). While the reduction in Turkish cores as a result of a dismantling is easy enough to achieve, I'm curious whether the OE turning into Turkey would also result in them losing any cores. Perhaps instead of the current reduction to modern Turkey cores they could have some kind of option.
    I cant say, it all depends on the event chain if we gain a new one, just saying the Min-Max, with the min being a Istanbul neutral zone(should happen, a turkish government that is apart from the mainland), Izmir being greek, kars being northern cauc, Kurdistan existing, and so on, with greater turkey being a case where the empire grow so weak that the turks simply create a new government, with the area mentioned being the cores

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    Quote Originally Posted by Connor Mulhern View Post
    Could there be an event that fires every people of months that converts soldier pops to farmers, I thought you did something similar with the Irish brigade decision but instead of doing soldier to farmer you did farmer to soldier. But I agree, slower industrialization before loss of soldier pops
    The Kelly's Irish Brigade decision is a one-shot decision-- Naselus won't go for spammy maintenance events, and I agree on that point.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Connor Mulhern View Post
    Now, the Bursa, Ankara, Konya, Bolu and Giresun regions should remain Turkish heartland, the area that is always retained by Turkey, no other cores can exist there, and that is what it is reduced to in the case of a loss of a dismantling.
    Remember that there are in fact Kurdish and Armenian cores on parts of Ankara and Giresun regions (not all the provinces but a few).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hibernian View Post
    Remember that there are in fact Kurdish and Armenian cores on parts of Ankara and Giresun regions (not all the provinces but a few).
    Gahh, I hate it when cores dont work out to be based on provinces (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻, In that case I would expand the neutral zone country to cover the coast as well

  20. #20
    I personally think that Christian cultures should not be given to the Ottoman Empire, as it was, at its very core, a Muslim state. However, there was little official differentiation between different Muslims (they were all counted as the same Millet, regardless of nationality) so I think adding Bosniak and Albanian (and having the OE lose these accepted cultures if they are pushed back to pre-Balkan war borders) would be a wise step here.

    I think liberal reforms would be better illustrated towards removing discrimination laws against minorities (which is what the Ottomans actually did) as it would represent that although the rights of non-Muslims in the empire were improving, it would still not be their empire so to speak.

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