• We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.

unmerged(487181)

Major
2 Badges
May 6, 2012
593
0
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Divine Wind
For the next update, can the player please be allowed to White Peace with hordes? I've had multiple cases (including a Byzantium one right now) where I've been at war with the Timurids for years on end, with nothing happening on either side - they've had an exclave on my land occupied by the AI all this time, and when I check my peace options, I go to demand they Concede Defeat because I rightfully don't feel I should have to yield Prestige to them to get a peace when the Timurids haven't done anything... and obviously they refuse, because they feel the same, but when I deselect "Concede Defeat" and I look at the peace screen, it says "White Peace" at the bottom (with, of course, no way to send it), and it says "They would accept this offer."

If the Hordes would accept the offer, doesn't that defeat the purpose of not allowing them to White Peace in the first place (that purpose being "They would never accept a White Peace")?
 
If they would accept white peace, they would also accept if you offer to concede defeat yourself, so just do that. It costs 5 prestige or so, so dont worry about it.
 
I shouldn't have to concede defeat if I haven't lost anything, and especially as Byzantium, suffering from a solid 5% loss PER YEAR due to the vast amount of "uncontested claims" I have everywhere, that 5% is substantial. Not to mention that with the enormous benefits of Sphere of Influence, conserving Prestige should be a significant priority... 5% Prestige isn't gamebreaking or anything obviously, but it's substantial enough that I don't think, if both sides would take a White Peace, that one side should have to do so.
 
Dude, it's 1 prestige per year. You don't lose any legitimacy when conceding to hordes either. Unless you want to expand into horde territory, concede whenever you can. This also helps them focus other nations and do slightly better against those.
 
Dude, it's 1 prestige per year. You don't lose any legitimacy when conceding to hordes either. Unless you want to expand into horde territory, concede whenever you can. This also helps them focus other nations and do slightly better against those.
Did you read the part where I'm already bleeding out prestige big-time as Byzantium? A white peace changes absolutely nothing about everything else you said. None of that is exclusive to concession of defeat. This "it's only X prestige per year!" thing is a bogus argument because it must be true that either:

(1) Prestige is not a big deal to the non-Horde country - if that's so, and it's functionally no different from a white peace, why not just allow a white peace?
or
(2) Prestige is a big deal to the non-Horde country - if that's so, and both sides would accept a white peace, why would you not have that as an option?

No matter what, the logical conclusion is "allow a white peace."
 
I think the problem stems from you worrying over the bleeding of prestige when you can't actually do much about it until you recover most of your cores. As Byz you will not be able to keep Positive prestige for long and should spend it quickly while you have it in the first place. I also the situation where instead of spending the prestige you are fighting 2 separate war and other AIs will dog-pile and attack due to your weakness. Suck it up take the defeat and focus on retaking the cores the true source of your prestige drain.
 
...what? Where did I say anything about being in two separate wars? I'm not - at the time I was actually taking a brief hiatus from fighting, with about half of my cores reclaimed (maybe a little more), but I still had unhelpful prestige drain that was being compounded by the Mamluks taking a decade or so to colonize the one Timurid province bordering me. I wanted a White Peace, the Timurids did, and it's stupid that we couldn't make a mutually beneficial deal that we both wanted because of arbitrary restrictions on peace deals with Hordes. Unless you can negate any one of those three statements, that's pretty much it, end of story. Don't give me any BS about "hurr suck it up it's not so bad" - it's a completely unnecessary penalty that neither side wants. "It's not so bad" is not justification for allowing something to happen that's completely avoidable, and I'm kind of blown away that that's not extremely obvious.
 
If you're Byzantium you'll be losing prestige until you retake a large majority of your cores. I can see why you would want to white peace option, it makes sense, but it's not really a big deal in your current situation to just concede defeat.

You're already losing a ton of prestige from uncontested cores, what's 5 more?
 
Horde leaders tend to really care whether they win or lose. Even if it's a simple formality. More civilized nations not so much, they're able to rationalize losing as winning a bit better
 
Welcome to playing Byzantium. Your prestige is going to flip-flop madly until you finally get your empire back.

Hordes don't do white peaces. Either they win, or you win, one or the other. This is a feature, not a bug; hordes are supposed to be a massive pain in the early game for anyone who starts next to them.
 
If you're Byzantium you'll be losing prestige until you retake a large majority of your cores. I can see why you would want to white peace option, it makes sense, but it's not really a big deal in your current situation to just concede defeat.

You're already losing a ton of prestige from uncontested cores, what's 5 more?
Five more is one point shy of +2 Diplomacy and +.1 magistrates/yr. Seriously, it matters, and there's NO justification for it at all.

Horde leaders tend to really care whether they win or lose. Even if it's a simple formality. More civilized nations not so much, they're able to rationalize losing as winning a bit better
This would make sense except (a) the AI is consistently delusional when it comes to winning/losing wars regardless of which country with whom you're negotiating, and (b) the AI would accept a White Peace if I could offer it, as evidenced by the fact that "They would accept this offer." shows up when I go to offer tribute and haven't selected anything yet, meaning they already think it's a draw. If they thought they won, then by definition, they would not be willing to accept a White Peace.

Welcome to playing Byzantium. Your prestige is going to flip-flop madly until you finally get your empire back.

Hordes don't do white peaces. Either they win, or you win, one or the other. This is a feature, not a bug; hordes are supposed to be a massive pain in the early game for anyone who starts next to them.
...I've played Byzantium plenty before. I cited them as an example of a country for whom this really matters. And I know it's not a bug. I'm asking that for the next update that this absurdity be removed. They're already a significant pain without this addition, and the addition makes no logical sense. Again: It's not that the AI is refusing a white peace where I think it shouldn't, which would be another matter altogether. It's that the AI would accept a peace if the game itself did not prevent us from offering it. That transcends (in my mind) the whole "hordes are supposed to be annoying" rationale because the Horde is not trying to be annoying. It's being *forced* to be annoying against its own apparent wishes. I don't think that's a good game mechanic at all.
 
This would make sense except (a) the AI is consistently delusional when it comes to winning/losing wars regardless of which country with whom you're negotiating, and (b) the AI would accept a White Peace if I could offer it, as evidenced by the fact that "They would accept this offer." shows up when I go to offer tribute and haven't selected anything yet, meaning they already think it's a draw. If they thought they won, then by definition, they would not be willing to accept a White Peace.

You misunderstand me, yes, the AI, that all AI's share, thinks a white peace would be a good idea. But this is a horde They won't accept a white peace. That's just how they roll. Same as not being able to royal marriage outside your religion group, it's just wasn't done, and was hardcoded for a reason.
 
Except that that's *not* "just how they roll." I find that a rather repugnant and arrogant view of the cultures that are represented as hordes in this game. They were brutal by standards of brutality then and now, and might be rather willing to pursue a fight further than we would, but they weren't stupid, fundamentally irrational barbarians. They could see the merit in calling a draw, and they weren't obsessively prideful to the point of always refusing a draw, and certainly weren't any moreso than the extravagantly narcissistic, delusional heads of state in Europe at the time. I think that's (to a degree) well-modeled by the AI's stubbornness (though it seems a mite extreme in particular execution, the concept is spot-on) as it is... the superimposed addition that automatically bans it altogether is over the top.
 
You can offer to concede defeat, offer a monthly tribute determined by your economies current state, demand them to concede defeat, and demand they provide monthly tribute depending on their economies current stat.

Those are the only options.
 
In general I disagree with your request. I like the current changes with the horde and making them honor bound to win or lose instead of a white peace makes for adjusting to a different tactic. You can't just ignore them and hope they go away.
 
On a quasi-historical note, one must recognise that the Timurid Dynasty and most Mongols did not wage war like Europeans signing lawful peace treaties. In theory, one may not see any distinction between peace and war, it being more a question of forming an army for a campaign. Timur in particular rejected any approach by westerners attempting to form treaties, alliance or mutual recognitions of sovereignty -- but simply replied that they should bow and give tribute.

Extrapolating this, war can only have two out-comes 1) the enemy concede to Mongol supremacy or 2) cripple the invader so thoroughly that no new invasion may come in years. To 'Concede Defeat' is the mildest form of surrender satisfying Mongol Pride. Forcing the Mongols to retreat and regroup is forcing them to "Concede." Sounds acceptable in a game where total, never-ending war would be game-breaking. A White Peace would be odd because it's conceding inability to force once war goals, but at the same time, not giving anything to the enemy. Since the legalistic 'war goal' does not really fit the Mongol, the concept would be odd in the game.

Regardless, I think 5 prestige, or even tribute is acceptable in most circumstances. It's like being upset when the AI wins.
 
...what? Where did I say anything about being in two separate wars? I'm not - at the time I was actually taking a brief hiatus from fighting, with about half of my cores reclaimed (maybe a little more), but I still had unhelpful prestige drain that was being compounded by the Mamluks taking a decade or so to colonize the one Timurid province bordering me. I wanted a White Peace, the Timurids did, and it's stupid that we couldn't make a mutually beneficial deal that we both wanted because of arbitrary restrictions on peace deals with Hordes. Unless you can negate any one of those three statements, that's pretty much it, end of story. Don't give me any BS about "hurr suck it up it's not so bad" - it's a completely unnecessary penalty that neither side wants. "It's not so bad" is not justification for allowing something to happen that's completely avoidable, and I'm kind of blown away that that's not extremely obvious.
the situation you are in is entirely avoidable by sensibly managing your territorial expansion-frankly the option to "concede defeat" is unjustified-it would make more sense if the only peace options were player pays tribute or horde agrees to 5 year ceasefire.