Manufacturing Italy: A PoN GC (... sort of)

July-December 1878, War

Well I’ve done it. In truth my response to sending that DOW was to save and not open the game for a couple of days. I realise this makes no sense, but I have the feeling that, even more than the first Ottoman war, this is going to be the game defining event. Win, and I should have the Italy of the 1914 borders (I doubt I will get more), lose and I guess it’s best to focus on the E Med and the Empire.

I’ll split this update over 2 (both covering the six months). Since I guess you might be interested, first will be the campaign in N Italy. At this stage the war was one of isolated battles followed by a lull, it will, believe me, get more intense as we go into 1879 and I’ll break the action down into smaller blocks.

The second of these updates will, of course, cover domestic issues and the colonial wars.

Austro-Italian War

First thing I checked what the war score needed for my main targets.



Well given my experience with the Ottomans, to gain the 365 I need for my two main goals is going to involve raising the tricolore in Wien.

I’ll put the replacement reports in here



Since I received no reserve formations on mobilisation I am raising 2 new line infantry corps (when I repeated the process later in 1879 I did gain a load of reserve formations). The ship is my first modern (for the 1870s) battleship.

As you can see, in this six month period I managed to absorb my losses and repair units as fast as possible. This was helped as the battles were broken up by periods of inaction.

So to the campaign.

Given the number of Prussians wandering around, all the Italian units are given careful lessons in how to tell the difference between a Berlin and Viennese accent – I really do not want any accidental declarations of war.

I catch an Austrian cavalry division at Venice and a larger Austrian force near Milan



Clearly the language lessons paid off as there are no dead Prussians to be found.

A rather reassuring start to the war and if the war carries on like this I’ll be in Vienna by Christmas.

So after the opening attacks, I hold the Po valley, but there is a large Austrian army in Sud-Tirol. Now that province is key to my plans, but there is no way am I going to attack.



With this, briefly the war settled down to a stalemate. By early August I manage an early view as to the size of the Austrian army



If I can conduct the early stages of this war on the defence in terrain of my choice, that is not too bad. However, I suspect, if this follows the pattern with the Ottomans, that their army will grow.

So while I really want the Sud-Tirol this seems to be a good chance to try and take Udine which falls rapidly.

As news of this latest victory is digested, I receive a series of news. The first peace offer from Austria, confirmation that Prussia has not backed its ally, but news that Austria has mobilised



So it looks like none of their potential allies has backed them.

By early September there is evidence the Austrians have fallen back to Innsbruck, this is too good a chance to miss so the army that was at Milan moves into the Sud-Tirol/Alto Adige



An Austrian rearguard is quickly dislodged



Leaving this situation



Since the only Austrian army in the region is in the Sud-Tirol I decide to gamble by pushing Garibaldi to Laibach while another army tries to storm Trieste. This ends in a monumental disaster:



Yes I did just lose over 55,000 men and they lost 50,000.

At least this disaster is balanced by taking the Austrian fort in the Sud-Tirol.



After that I pull back to recoup at Udine and Garibaldi is ordered back from his now rather exposed position, beating off an Austrian attack as he does so.



Yes that new Austrian army is .5 million, still that battle cost them almost 50,000 losses and 10,000 prisoners. Given that they outnumber me in artillery but I am still winning the ranged duel I guess I have a real tech advantage in that area at least.

Obviously, Austria’s mobilisation has rather changed the balance of power



So far I have lost around 100,000 and they have lost 175,000 (plus 105,000 prisoners). However in terms of NM shifts, they have gained (though I still have a massive bonus), I think due to the disaster at Trieste.

Still end of period



In effect, my entire army (still around 10,000 power) is in Udine and Sud-Tirol with 2 powerful (but separated) Austrian armies of 5,000 each threatening me. Given the power ratio there must be more Austrians, I’d guess at least another 20,000 in power, somewhere.

I am starting to think I’ve started a fight with someone much bigger than me

Before I start on detailed feedback I've had a rethink about the update process during this war. In effect, i somehow suspect people don't really care about variations in my fish stocks unless that directly impinges on the war itself. So what I'll do is to shift to a series of time bounded reports that only sketch in domestic/colonial events of any real note. That way I can concentrate on the war, and varying the amount of time each update covers according to the intensity of the fighting.

As is clear, this is a bit of a game defining gamble. Win and i think Italy will become very powerful, lose and its a case of being the mistress of the East Med and East Africa.

Matnjord said:

Holy molly, that's an awful lot of Austrians! Good thing the Prussians didn't join the war, otherwise you would be toasted!
Assuming battles work roughly like in RUS I think you should be able to hold on to Milano (since you bothered to say Wien and not Vienna you should be able to say Milano and not Milan! Yes, I am an angry Italo-French) and Venezia. Whether you'll be able to push forward though is a completely different task, one that seems downright impossible to me right now.

It makes me question the viability of opening a second front in the Balkans as this would allow the Austrians to bring their superior numbers to bear, something not feasible in the constricted battlefield of northern Italy.

Is there a mechanic like in CK2 where you gain warscore by holding on to your objectives? Otherwise I can't fathom how you will be able to force the Austrians to cede Veneto and Lombardia.

Still, I wish you the best of luck in what seems to be a grim struggle. Remember those immortal words:

"You see Italians never lose,
If we're dead, we're dead so nobody cares,
If we win we've won,
If we run away we can always come back later
so Italians never lose you see?"

Oh, also congratulation for the easy win against the Ottomans. It's nice to see that unlike in EU3 a nation can be devastated in the long term by war.

What, you're saying I only appear when there's a war update? Well, what can I say, I like offering BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD!

edit: By the way, what is this purple-colored artillery counter I see in the casualties list of the battle of Festung Triest? Are you somehow using artillery from another nation?

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Well as I come from a Scots-Italian family (this is quite common in Glasgow as a lot of Italians arrived in the 1920-30s, a lot fleeing fascism) I know what you mean about anglicising, even worse I am an inconsistent user ...

Yes there are a couple of mechanics that over time allow you to lever a certain warscore up. First it does go up, especially if you hold the capital (that was key to my Ottoman wars), over time. Second, if you hold a province to which you have a legitimate claim it may flip to your control (at least this is what will seem to happen with Lombardy). Third if your NM>125 and the enemy <65, then for a given warscore they may be willing to give you more than you earn - they will be facing large scale domestic dissent at that stage.

The different colours reflect which Italian minor built the unit originally (this seems to show in particular for artillery) but I also am using captured Ottoman & Austrian guns.

Stuyvesant said:

Uh-oh...

Killing Austrians by the bucketload is all good, but those 5,000 power stacks (with more somewhere in the hinterlands) are disturbing. Hopefully, the Austrians will decide that they need to dislodge you from the mountains of Sud Tirol, rather than taking the easier roads that lead through the plains of the Po.

I'm impressed that Gari beat back a force nearly three time his own size (and note his stats: 6-6-6. Hmm, time to revisit my "G'Harry" comment?). So, as long as Big G is in charge, you'll be okay?

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the Big G (or, as you say, G'Harry) becomes a 6-7-7 pretty soon. The Austrians suffer for frontage so we will see a fair few battles end like that. The threat is that they can (& will in places) just overwhelm me, but in a short 1 day battle they cannot put their army into the firing line. So I end up with equal numbers in contact, far better commanders and a pretty good army (most of the infantry are 3/10 on experience).

My firm hope is that they want Sud-Tirol rather than Venice ...

germanpeon said:

The Udine salient aside, you've got a very solid defensive position with Sud-Tirol and the river in front of Venezia. If you can hold those down relatively easily against superior numbers there may be some hope yet for a viable second front in Dalmatia, especially if you do in fact have a technological advantage.

Let's hope the swell in Austrian power is in second rate soldiers, and not regulars. I believe in you!

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I actually pull back from Udiine as I decide I really want the security of the Isonzo to shore up my defense in the plains. But I do gamble on a distraction at Split, anything to make them split up their main army

Gen. MonkeyBear said:

Good luck.

Can you convince the Balkan countries to join the war? Or perhaps Russia?

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unfortunately not. At this stage the 1878-9 Balkan war hasn't fired. Equally the game only seems to allow defensive alliances, but I would be so grateful if Russia would kindly like to step in

Dewirix said:

I'm still not experienced in reading PoN battle reports, but it appears that at the battle of Trieste you wiped out all of the Austrian stack save for 40 cannons. Is this correct, or did they have outside help which made the defeat inevitable even if you'd destroyed all their initial forces?

Outnumbered 3 to 1 in power terms. It could be worse, and as you say, you can afford to stand on the defensive somewhat now that you're occupying Austrian land.

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You are right. Some of the AGE games have had a bug with sieges where a rump artillery unit will hold out. it doesn't seem to affect PoN so I think I ran out of cohesion at the last moment and broke off. The alternative is those damned Prussians lounging on their towels by the beach confused the game engine.

But yes, if needs be, I'll stand and hold what i have, this is as good a defense line as I will ever have so I may as well make the best of it.

Powloon said:

Wow I can see why you declared war and left it a couple of days this is definately the pivotal point for your Italy. Looks like you got lucky with Austria's allies (with friends like those who needs enemies). It seems slightly bizarre that Baden actually gained 50 prestige points for not declaring war (those minor countries definately aren't at war with you right?)!

I think one thing I can be sure of this war will not be short. As mentioned above looks like you have managed to set up a decent defensive postion I wonder though how long it will take to wear down the Austrians by staying purely on the defensive particularly as you haven't cut off a major part of their industry and consequently they can continue to churn out replacements? The other tricky part I see will be acquiring the war score it might be that you have to settle for one instead of both provinces?

That battle/slaughter at Triest I'm guessing you were looking to take it quickly without making any breaches first? Was that a full guard corps destroyed or were there some elements left to recover? Still other than that you have gotten the best of every other battle so far so looks good long term.

On the economic side if you haven't done so already it might be worth building on both the silk resources in Milan and Venice if it is going to be a long war you might as well earn some PC from those provinces.

I took a look at the partial mobilisation decision looks like it only has a chance of success when your country is at war (might explain why you didn't get anything from the first try).

I know this is a bit down the road but if you are successful against Austria and take your objectives will you still see the game out as a lot of the challenge will have gone?

As always a great update to read with my morning coffee.

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Fortunately I only lost 1 division in the corps counter so in theory it can regenerate over time, but yes I gambled on storming it off the march.

If I win (& its a big if), I think I will need to repeat the exercise to get the rest of 1919 Italy (even if I can't then claim Split). From that point, I think I need to start to prepare for the war with GB, so push naval modernisation hard and then build up a decent combat fleet (for home defense and to support an invasion of India). That will take time. I also want to see what the late game economy looks like.

Actually I worked out later that Baden and Wurtemburg had honoured their alliances with Austria ... only another 1500 power for me to worry about

Director said:

Oh.






My.



The only way to win a war is by offensive action, which you (rightly) are currently foregoing until things develop more in your favor. My personal preference has always been for the strategy of Belisarius and von Manstein - the 'backhand blow' in which you tempt an opponent into an attack and, after wrecking his assault, roll up the now-disorganized armies. You problem will be finding sufficient reserves with which to prosecute the (hopefully) inevitable counter-blow. I am encouraged to see that you are able to replace your losses, and further encouraged to hear you say you may have some technical advantages. An 'iron storm' of artillery fire sounds like a great way to wear down the Austrian regulars. Here's hoping the Austrians wade right in and bleed right out... and here's hoping the mass of Austrian troops are no better or more patriotic than they were in WW1.

Waiting for the Austrian AI make a mis-step will be nerve-wracking (trust me - I know - I'm currently watching the German army like a hawk and hoping for a chance to strike) but absolutely necessary. I wish for you Napoleon's 'coup d'oeil' for if you move to early - or too late - you will court disaster.

If you can spare the troops - even a small number - I highly recommend you adopt a raiding strategy in Dalmatia or bribe a Balkan country to join your side. Anything to encourage the AI to spend its numerical advantage garrisoning long stretches of border a long way away from the Po valley.

Of course the 'golden bullet' would be Russia's entry on your side, but I'm sure you have already thought of that.

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I'd so love a Russian DOW, that would distract the Austrians wonderfully. Staying on top of my replacement costs is one of my key goals. Do that and you can sustain a lot of combat with no (or few) lost elements, start to drop behind and sooner or later your army will just collapse.

This is one of those stages with an AGEOD game when you have to keep repeating to yourself = 'McClellan (?) was right, Hooker was wrong' and just be patient. Exploit the bias to the defense and use terrain as you can. My artillery is again going to be very important in equalising the odds - they have more but it is clearly less effective.

I do start raiding on the Adriatic, anything for some easy VPs/National Morale and hopefully to distract what is coming my way

Soulstrider said:

Hmmm I think this war may have been an huge mistake.

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yep ... its what I thought, especially by Summer 1879

January-March 1879, of beards, bombs and visiting Russians

So the start of 1879 sees the Eastern Alps blanketed in snow:



With the threat of additional Austrian units, the Italians pull back behind the Isonzo. A defence resting on the rivers and the Dolomite chain seems to be the best option for now. It was not clear how that force would be committed but, despite the conditions, in a warning of the horrors to come, the Austrians manage to launch an attack on the still entrenching Italians around Trientino.



By the time they broke off, over 15,000 Austrians lay dead in the snows [1]. With that the war briefly falls back into a lull. In the meantime Italy is fully occupied with Russians, Trains, Colonies and Beards.

The Italian government is briefly distracted from the war by the arrival of the Tsar on his latest Mediterranean cruise. [2]



The population seems to have put to one side their annoyance at the call up of the reserves and are increasingly supportive of the war effort. The former Austrian provinces seem to have a few unpatriotic individuals who wish for the return of their old masters.



Few things to note there. For some reason any of my potential provinces I occupy show up in my national provinces list (so there must be a geographical connection part to this logic). Second I have a confession. That third column from the right is not total population (as I’ve been claiming) but the rate of growth, the final column is total population of working age. Its good to see Italy reproducing at such an impressive rate – I am going to need the manpower.


And despite the needs of war, a new high speed train line is planned from Rome to Turin.



I think the main advantage of this is it will increase the transportation multiplier for production. So I’ll run a line that links my main industrial centres. This is too expensive (for now) to place everywhere.



Equally the news from the colonies forms a welcome distraction. In both Yemen and Somalia there is a gradual increase in the level of urbanisation.



And the region to the south of Libya becomes an Italian protectorate.



And the Italian control in Palestine is extended to cover Jordan



The man with the huge beard returns to lead the nation in its moment of need.



However, by the end of February, the relative calm is shattered as spring melts the snow.



In addition Croatian nationalists report the presence of the bulk of the Austrian army.



The only reassuring element is they also report stories of starving Austrian soldiers desparately seeking food.- the final (green) bar indicates they have a supply shortage.

Early March sees a renewed attempt by the Austrians to force the Dolomites.



This proved to be another isolated attempt to test out the Italian defense, but this time 7,000 Italians lay dead in the trenches along with 20,000 Austrians.

In an attempt to distract the Austrians, the marines are ordered to capture Split.


However, even as the marines set sail, news arrives of a renewed Austrian offensive. The war is about to explode into one of the bloodiest conflicts in recent European history.



Steadily the death toll was increasing and this time a substantial number (32,000) Austrians surrendered. Any hope this marked an end to their commitment to the war was soon to be dashed. This was but an indication of what was to come across that warm, awful, summer of 1879.



In a period that had seen little but the two armies probing for weaknesses some 17,000 Italians and 65,000 Austrians had died. Since the start of the war, losses were around 360,000 for both sides combined.

[1] – in all these reports the totals are meaningless (they are all that is the province or eligible to fight – ‘march to the sound of the guns’). In reality, the frontage is such (Alto Adige/Sud-Tirol) is such that only 4 formations on my side (& usually 3 of theirs) can actually fight. So I can rotate damaged formations into the line when facing a multi-day assault.
[2] – this really surprised me, but they still will not sign a defensive treaty

just a quick comment - better feedback with the next update.

I've got attrition off for the AI, on for the player (which does indeed place a limit on my feasible army size but I guess frees the AI). My guess is that at war start the Austrian regular army was around 18,000 power (mine was about 12,000) so I think that horde is their mobilisation. If I understand it, your mobilisation pool is greater depending on your army type and their are more than one type of mobilisation cards you can play (beyond my limited mobilisation).

But I do find they struggle to bring that mob to bear due to logistical problems - actually the AI simply breaks it up and sends a lot back to Wien and uses the balance.

Stuyvesant said:

That's a quarter three-quarters of a million Austrians (and assorted other ethnicities, presumably) throwing themselves at and/or off the cliffs of the Dolomites... Scary numbers. And while you say the small frontage means they can't commit all their troops, what works for you (rotating units in and out of combat) would presumably also work for the Austrians. So how are you going to kill off their elements?

I do notice in the final screenshot that the relative Austrian combat power rating has dropped from 300 to 254. Since the battles in Italy weren't that costly (compared to what they could have been), I assume that means their armies are undersupplied and feeling the strain. Perhaps that doomstack in Croatia managed to doom itself...

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Translating losses into lost elements (or in my case avoiding the loss of elements) is one of my main goals. I can't do much to them (in some combat rounds I obviously won big time and took prisoners as well as inflicted losses) but I can rotate my units as much as possible. If you think March was bad, just look at April and May.

I think the main reason for the relative decline in the ratio is I started to build 2 fresh infantry corps (& more artillery ... I really like artillery in this game), so I guess that helped. Its also a bit opaque as to how much that number reflects temporary loss of combat power say due to supply or organisation difficulties.

Unfortunately, they managed to solve their supply problems ...

Dewirix said:

You can't afford too many victories like the first battle of Trient in this update. A one to three casualty ratio is pretty near to the overall balance of forces. The second round was much more in your favour though (especially given the prisoner numbers), so the war is still looking winnable.

The Austrian prisoners don't seem to appear in the "Prisoners take & our losses" part of the last screenshot. The figure under the Austrian flag has gone down since the last update.

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Ideally, in number terms, I need nearer 4-1, since I have a real qualitative advantage the raw power ratio doesn't really reflect their dominance in terms of numbers. But I still have masses of conscripts so I can rebuild and absorb my losses (& a much better economy than they have). I have to hope that economic problems, plus a worsening NM, weakens their ability to put new armies in the field (in effect, but more bloodily, what I did to the Ottomans first time around) - useful reminder that this is, at its core, an economic game.

Narwhal said:

Well, that's a bit disappointing. It looks like the Austrians are banging on a wall. A wall that hit back. I actually wished you were defeated - if only for this game to be even more historical

In addition, I was thinking of creating a "SP war pool" for PoN. Basically, players play SP until they are in an (interesting) war, and this point the opposing side is taken over by a player in the pool under the end of the war. That would make war more difficult, and thus "realistic"

Of course, the only issue is that for now I don't play PoN

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Yeah, the AI is rather single minded and but then it doesn't have a lot of choice. It either surrenders but the warscore/NM system prevents the AI from doing what a human would do ... and just cut your losses. When it can use manouvre it does, but my whole operational plan was to create a defense line where mobility was restricted.

Matnjord said:

Nice to see you holding the line without (for now) too much trouble.

It looks to me that the Austrian army is just too damn big for the Austrian state to be able to sustain it. In real life in 1880 Austria-Hungary had a population of 37 millions. Counting those two gigantic armies they must have probably 3 million men in arm, and that's not counting reservists and garrisons. 10% of your population in the army in a period where industrialization was still far from having reached its apex seems like a proper recipe for economic suicide. Even during WWI Austria mobilized over the course of 4 years 6 million men (a bit more than 10% of its population), and we know how hungry the average Austrian soldier was at the end.

We will see whether the Austrian state will be able to sustain the economic burden of this war or will just collapse on itself.

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I thnk they have about 1.4 million in the field (plus garrisons that spawn on need), but yes you are spot on. I'm waging economic war here, my economy is stronger and my NM is higher. So in the end I am hoping for a 1918 collapse, but the road to that is going to be littered with a lot of (electronic) corpses. Equally, all they need is to overwhelm me once and I am in deep trouble.

Taijian said:

My guess would be that this is due to the fact that Loki100 is playing with the 'realistic attrition' setting turned 'off'. With that setting turned on, armies will need replacements even when at peace, thus naturally limiting the size of armies because of manpower rotation. Without, there is practically no upper limit to army size with relation to population when at peace...

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I think they have 2 rounds of mobilisation pushing up their army size - they seem to have more cards for different levels of mobilisation than I do - makes sense as theirs is a conscript army and mine is based on regulars.

April-May 1879, staining the Catanaccio red

These two months set the tone of the war for the rest of 1879. Briefly Italy expanded its control to Udine, Trieste and the entire Adriatic coast but the need to find some means to hold the relentless Austrian offensive in the Dolomites meant all the armies were pulled back behind the Isonzo and rotated in and out of the slaughter to the north.

I won’t show you every battle as it was endless, but April started with



And then we got:



Yep, 10 major assaults, all held at a rough loss ratio of 3-1. Sooner or later, I fear my armies will crack as they have around 1.1 million supporting this offensive.

While that was going on, part of the Italian army struck at Trieste



Now I’d ordered that before the Austrian offensive so now one of my main formations is out of position for the Dolomite battles. So I can’t actually afford to hold onto what has cost me a lot of blood to take. However, by mid-April, the Italian army occupied an arc along the Adriatic coast (the marines have captured all the non-fortified towns), Udine and into Trentino-Alto Adige.



And losses for both sides are escalating



I’ve included my replacement need as an indication. So I need to raise lots of replacements, but also face the difficulty in feeding them to the units actually holding the line (I start rotating the units in the Dolomites in and out so they have chance to recover). However, the Austrians have now lost almost half a million men, 250,000 in the last 2 weeks.
I opted to abandon Trieste, and concentrate in Udine. By early May I pull back the reserves into the Veneto so my flank is protected by the Isonzo. Late April sees more slaughter in the Dolomites.



Almost half a million dead, again in a roughly 4-1 ratio and at last they start to lose elements (this makes sense as they cannot take on supply or replace while in a province I am contesting). Amidst all the news from the Dolomites, it was almost easy to miss a famous victory by the Marines



Despite the string of victories, some Italian units were on the verge of collapse and fresh infantry corps, plus more artillery were being trained to replace shattered and exhausted formations.



The desperate need for a chance to rest and recover was denied, as the Austrians attacked yet again throughout May.



I mentioned before that the raw numbers in these battles is misleading. Here is one round in more detail, as you can see 4 Italian formations actually fought 3 Austrian units:



That goes some way to explaining how this fighting can be sustained. We both can cycle fresh units in on a very narrow frontage. But also the notional weight of the Austrian army is negated by the mountainous terrain.



So at the start of June, there are two major Austrian armies. The one stuck into Trentino is starting to suffer serious losses (the red bar) and is low on supply (the third green bar), at some stage they will need to break off. But of course the second force at Klagenfurt can simply replace it. At least I have reinforcements on the way.
The central Dolomites were not living up to their romantic German name (Rosengarten) but to their more descriptive Italian (Cattanacio) as the small villages and rugged peaks of the Val di Fassa ran red with blood.