Manufacturing Italy: A PoN GC (... sort of)

Powloon said:

Good solid progress. That dalience with the Ethiopians looks like another another of those strange "features" that seem to crop in the game from time to time.

More Ottoman slapping eh. I am almost beginning to feel sorry for them :unsure:. I'm assuming your relations haven't recovered with them since the last time you Tangoed or has their military power crashed so far that they have fallen below China?

Regarding the ship image thing I think I read somewhere on the multiplayer thread that the ship images were not updating but the underlying elements were correct (or something along those lines) hopefully someone more knowledgeable than I can comment!

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I think you are right that the image doesn't update (all the time), so I decided to go ahead with replacing my losses, hoping that it would be with more modern ships.

As we will see in 1876, I don't think the Ottomans have recovered from being attacked by me and then the Russians, so I suspect they are too weak to appear on the list.

I do, in 1876, find some of the Ethiopian army ready to help me out, the rest is running wild along the Nile refusing to accept Italian rule.

Ricardo Rolo said:

I assume that the Ethiopian shennigans are due to some kind of inter Ethiopian war that you rudely interrupted with your takeover, leaving one of the sides somewhat confused about what to do since their enemy was suddenly replaced

On the colonial side, and besides that big lake most likely named after Gari innumerable victories , all looks good. Kuwait looks a liability, though, in the context of a Ottoman war ( suposing that they have anything worth the name of military, that is ), unless you create a Persian gulf army ( or you already have it ? Not sure ... ). That said, it would be interesting to see Ol'Gari back to Arabia ... maybe even marching from the Euphrates mouth to Istanbul On the Otto war itself, I agree with the timing, since it appears that you and Russia made short work of them and it should not take long for other parties to sense the smell of blood :/

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I've got one regular army corps in my colonial region (I use the local fleet to ferry it around) so have something that can probably conquer southern Iraq at best and certainly hold Kuwait at least. In the update after this one, everyone seems to be keen on someone's blood ...

Stuyvesant said:

This. Is. Too. Mindboggling.

I'd like to come up with some witty remark, but the simple fact that your game universe allows this comment to even be conceived is causing my brain to short out.

Invading Iraq is always a good idea which never turns out wrong for anyone. Least of all for a Western imperialist power (like, say, Britain in WWI). While you're at it, can you install a puppet erm, friendlier regime to really safeguard Kuwait's safety for eternity? Otherwise you might be forced to defend Kuwait's sovereignty in perpetuity as the dastardly Ottomans keep piling on as soon as you declare another completely justified war on them.

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well I have further proof of Swiss inefficiency in the next update ...

I think I can force the Ottomans to disgorge Iraq but I don't really want it, I have too much land already to maintain control if I faced several major revolts at the same time. I'm going after prestige and key locations.

Gen. MonkeyBear said:

You don't need to worry about the Ottomans . . . Just send in a few drone strikes!

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I do have balloons ... do they count?

July-December 1875, Europe slumbers (especially the Swiss)

The second half of 1875 saw a false sense of security hanging over Europe. Unknown to others, the leaders of three of the major European nations were plotting war with their neighbours.

In Italy, plans were laid for a second Ottoman war. Tensions over Garibaldi’s island tour and in the Persian Gulf were such that Italy decided to seek a decisive resolution to all remaining disputes with her Eastern neighbour.

For the moment though, the Italian press was full of reports about Italy’s economic miracle (often contrasted with the ongoing strikes in neighbouring Switzerland). The lack of a work ethic and the inefficiency of this backward country was seen as proof of the success of what became known as the Italian System. Further proof, if any was needed came from the gradual exploration of East Africa.



Manufactured



I’m still having some problems acquiring manufactured goods which is one reason why the Private Capital is staying relatively high. Even so, I am managing a sustained process of upgrading industrial and agricultural units, hence the steadily increasing per turn (right hand column) usage of PC.

I also build a third electrical factory:



Non-Manufactured



Not much to say there, I can pretty much juggle stocks and production as I need and keep the population fed and well supplied with common goods.

Military



I decided regardless of where I was in the naval technology cycle I had to repair the fleet for service against the Ottomans. I’m also filling out some gaps in my army OOB, in particular a shortage of specialist cavalry formations (I have plenty that are organic to the main infantry corps).

Population



Main thing to note there is that over this period there has been a relatively large population growth (and resulting small dip in educational levels).

Should add in this respect, the University cards do add to that province's educational levels. There is no clue in the tooltip etc but you can see the outcome in Tuscany and Lazio above - they both gained +4 education and those were the provinces where I had played the cards.



Inventions



It was the unlocking of the two on the left that made me decide it was time to allow the navy to repair and expand it a little. Business schools make my exports a bit more competitive (useful in an era of global over supply of many goods), not sure what the reserve invention adds. I think it is a new type of infantry corps (I do wish that the PoN research model was just a bit easier to navigate from invention to consequence).

Colonies

East Africa



That is a bit larger scale than I usually use but I think provides a good overview of my dominance in East Africa. As you can see, I am threatened by the evil British and the Portuguese, but I think I can secure a dominant position all to the east of the Rift Valley. My explorers are actively filling in the dark brown bits and my traders are following behind (supported by missionaries taking up useful positions). I am no where near taking colonial control over the hatched areas inland from Zanzibar (I suspect mainly due to undiscovered provinces).

Diplomacy

In recognition of Italy’s growing power in the Persian Gulf, Persia, wisely, seeks to be our friends



Prestige



Prestige continues to accrue as I chase down Russia for the #3 place. My industry is really pushing my score up and, for some reason, I am the most social of nations. Well in that spirit I will visit the Ottomans very soon.

Now I think I can win just by current trends. There are 44 years (ie 1056 turns) left and I am gaining prestige at a rate of 60 per normal turn. So that will give me another 66,360 at game end, the UK is gaining at 28 per turn. So by my calculations



Which in game turns is a victory. But to win it properly I need double the UK’s prestige, in effect 166,000 or so.

Well at least it looks feasible.

Anyway, 1876 is going to see Europe substantially shaken up.

Soulstrider said:

Oh exciting, can't wait to see the powder-keg explode

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yep, most of Europe is at war with someone pretty soon, and Prussia seem to have CBs against most of the globe by mid-1877

Dewirix said:

It strikes me that a war with the Ottomans might be ill-timed if it distracts from your ability to capitalise on other European wars. Hopefully the Porte is in too weak a shape to put up much of a fight, but it would be a pain to see the Austrians dragged into a war with Prussia or Russia while you're busy elsewhere.

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That is the gamble, but I have an alternative. If I can finish off the Ottomans quickly, my NM will be very high (= highly effective army) and Prussia is at war with GB. So just maybe they won't back Austria at a time when I will have a top class army ... becomes rather tempting

Stuyvesant said:

You know, I had to read through the update twice (read it hurriedly yesterday, failed to comment) before I spotted that. Well played sir, a groaner worthy of your talents.

Another round with the reeling Ottomans awaits, and we'll have supporting acts as well? My, it will be a veritable festival of warfare - a 19th century Woodstock, if you will. Minus the love and peace, of course.

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yep love and peace are on the back burner for a while. But if you want the superb deployment of bad puns, you really need to read this

Powloon said:

Europe at war sounds like it might open up some interesting possibilities. Is this a sign that the alliance system is fracturing?

Other than using Garibaldi as the 19th Centuary equivalent of a thermo nuclear device are you planning on a multi theatre campaign again? I definately concur that those cavalry divisions you purchased are extremely useful when used as independant forces. You may also have them but I also found having some independant infantry brigades very useful either as escorts, garrison forces or for sweeping up undefended provinces.

I also liked that you snagged Kuwait (never occured to me) so I think I might have to appropriate that idea and pretend it was mine :happy:

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Next update will be domestic/colonial and then I'll cover the war. But the basic plan is as before, 3 armies in Europe, Gari in the Near East and my new option of a corps pushing to Baghdad from Kuwait. Actually I should have built more divisions, precisely for the sort of actions you mention.

Sir Garnet said:

Actually, the prestige income from shipbuilding and the largest steel and arms factories, among others, encourages overinvestment and might be thought of as (in)vested interests.

Italy's replacement pool looks seriously empty - not enough to cover more than movement attrition and a skirmish. As a contemporaneous Brazil, which is smaller militarily, I try to keep at least a bloody battle's worth of replacements for peacetime readiness - 30 for Line infantry (for 300 hits) and commensurate numbers of other replacements, heavy on supply since they take special hits . This is lighter than I would be if Brazil had corps, since with divisions being the largest formations there is more element destruction or loss of a whole division while corps tend to just get hollowed out and need more replacements.

Obviously there are other uses for resources, but in any case it is good to have a peacetime readiness standard for ready replacements. Cases when I would avoid replacements would be for almost obsolete ships while awaiting the new generation to be open for construction of new units and replacement elements.

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When colonial advancements yield troops they are not necessarily located in that colony. Often they are in unexplored regions. Use the F5 to get a global view, or the F2 force list, or just use the E/R cycle keys to find hidden units. These may be unsupplied and need quick orders to get them to safety.

Note that unexplored status does not prevent plotting units inside out, or units outside through. Units can also pop into such territories when they lose the right to be in the region they are located and are teleported to your territory. I've send supply wagons into the brown to help such unfortunate troops out without perishing totally from attrition.

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To help the Ottomans recover and be useful after you are done with them, have hundreds of points of spare warscore not used for claims in order to get good relations after peace due to your merciful terms, and build them railroads and depots while occupying their territory - they will make use of it later.

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Invention muzzle-loading rifled naval cannon means new ships can be armed with them, but old construction is not upgraded.

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Thanks for that, helpful as ever. I actually do find some Ethiopians hidden in the mountains, fortunately before they started to starve.

I'm ok for replacements in this war. The number of bloody battles is very few, so having 2-3 at any time is plenty. I think if I get it into a big European war I really would need to stock up in advance though. In truth, in the last Ottoman war, I needed more as indeed my weakened units ended up costing me dear in longer term rebuilding.

edit - one thing I notice in this war is my attrition and cohesion losses on movement are a lot lower - I think that reflects the cumulative impact of all those techs I have acquired since 1872.

January-June 1876, domestic and colonial actions (& a big beard is sighted)

I’m going to keep with six month reports despite the second Ottoman-Italian war. In part I want to keep more of an eye on domestic and colonial matters than I did first time around and in part this campaign is much more straightforward (well it is up to April 1877 which is where I am in-game).

What I will do though is to split each six month report over two posts. One on non-war things, the other covering the campaign. So this one will be presented as if there wasn’t a war on.



Manufactured



Things mostly under control there, some more upgrades done (hence the steadily rising PC usage). In late June my first electrical good factory opens, the small (2) production of manufactured goods is welcome as well.

Non-manufactured



In this period, not much to say there, stocks fairly steady and all I need either available domestically or by trade.

Population



Now to be honest that confused me. Especially the radical drop in satisfaction.

So it took a bit of digging around, but I am now responsible for the needs of the citizens of the Ottoman provinces I am capturing. Since I wasn’t factoring this in, I had started to badly miss meeting food and common good requirements.

My response, as we will see in the next 6 month report is to open up all those agricultural sites I closed in the 1850s and after unification. I then start importing both food and common goods as much as I can.

The result is my balance of payments goes negative but I am making +1300 PC per turn on domestic sales.

Military



Even with the war on, that is very much under control. I’d even started to build a fresh mountain infantry corps and another cavalry division too.


Colonial

Well I found quite a lot of the Ethiopian army when my explorers discovered the last portion of the Ethiopian Highlands. Not as much as I’d hoped for (in total about 500 power) but I disperse them around and brigade them with my colonial divisions.



Over in Dubai, things are even weirder. Sending out the colonists improves my Gem production but seems to make the province change from a colonial status to being Italian.



Elsewhere I continue to make discoveries




Immediately, missionaries and traders are sent into the Sahara to take up advanced positions before the new regions are ready for full Italian rule.

Diplomacy.

Well this was quite a war like period. First I find that Prussia and Britain had started a war (Prussia has had an awful lot of diplomatic spats)



And Russia goes to war with Moldavia



So I really have to join in



Now, that Prussian war offers an interesting opportunity. Will they back their Austrian ally while at war with someone else?

In response, a man with an impressive beard arrives to lead Italy ..



Prestige



So I am now only 100 behind Russia, so I guess it’s a case of who does the best out of our current wars. Note also my regular gains from industry is now up to 38.

I guess, given their respective NMs, that Prussia is winning its war with GB.

Director said:

Don't forget, in Rome you have vestment interests.

I hope the war goes well for you. It is always easier to get into one than out, so I hope you have a clear picture of what you want to achieve. One may hope that the Russians are occupied in Moldavia and won't be tempted to take advantage of the Ottoman distraction as they did the last time.

How on Earth could Prussia have a CB on Scotland? I thought the terms of Union reserved foreign policy for the Union parliament.. one hesitates to think of Prussia rolling into Edinburgh while England picks its teeth and says, "Oh, and you want some help from me now, do you?"

As a (fictional) great thinker on war once said, “Thrift in the attainment of a goal is of primary importance. Expenditure of men and gold is as fatiguing to a state as hard labor is to a man. Therefore wage war only for great gain, and stop when you have won.”

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well at least in this time line, the man in the skirt-in-rome, has no international treaties protecting his remaining temporal power

obviously Prussia are in the 'better together' camp. I'll try to avoid discussion of the Scottish independence debate as (a) its of extremely limited interest to most of the world and (b) its contentious. But at the moment the big bogey person being raised by the Unionists is that an independent Scotland would have to renegiate 10,000 international treaties or we will be invaded by N Korea (most of the 10,000 being rather out of date). Its good to see that PoN carries such a stark warning of the danger of independence.

I'm not sure where that CB came from but non-existant states do exist in the diplomacy screen (all the Italian minors are stlll there) and I think the game engine picks opponents at random (or its a consequence of the anglo-prussian war), later on the Prussians get a CB on the Pope (they spend most of this period having diplomatic hissy fits with anybody and everybody) and I know he has no land left.

I'm clear as to my war goal - Jerusalem. This surrounds Egypt and gives me a route to link up my Empire till the Suez canal is ready. But I need a lot of warscore to gain it.

Stuyvesant said:

I think I remember that thinker.

Anyway, loki, any idea how Scotland would've broken free from Britain? Does PON have nationalist rebels à la EU3? And how on earth could the British AI have allowed them to get away with it? Surely Britain would've been able to muster some troops for the domestic housekeeping required to keep the Scots pacified?

Regarding your non-national territory on the Persian Gulf - does that break things for you, where you can no longer increase your influence until you declare a formal colony? Or is that province now truly a part of Italy, can you build now build non-colonial improvements there?

's Only fair you would join in on this whole warring gig. I mean, all the cool kids are doing it, can't let Italian prestige down by sitting things out like some kind of international wallflower.

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In Dubai, its essentially in my favour. I can now build much more there (like a much larger fort) but obviously till I sort out the population there is no point adding much more development. The negative is it is no longer a destination for emigration but I can still send emigrants to the other close by provinces.

and yes, at the moment, its only the square boring states (like Austria) in Europe who are not up to their necks in one war or another. Even the Dutch are at it - still at war in Aceh.

Gen. MonkeyBear said:

Yep. As we all learn in high school, nothing bad ever comes from yielding to peer pressure.

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Exactly, everyone else has a war, why shouldn't you ... perfectly reasonable, I mean look where that got Europe in 1914.

Powloon said:

Nice to see you joining the war band wagon!

With your recent acquistion of the Dodecanese I'm guessing the main objectives of this campaign for you are Adana and perhaps Palestine (not sure now that I think of it whether Adana is included in Palestine or not)? From my own game that set of objectives is well over 200 WS so you will likely have to occupy most the Ottoman Empire to shake those free? After the extended blood letting last time I am interested to see how successfully the Ottomans have managed to recuperate.

Something that has been puzzling me for a while is why you have such a massive stockpile of coffee (459) mainly as it at least in my game has always been such a sought after resource? Oh and while I am in question machine gun mode did you manage to remove the British influence from Abu-Dhabi?

Good luck with the war (although by the sounds of what you have let slip so far it looks like this one is well in hand)

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I'm going to leave Adana with the Ottomans. It has no useful resources and is a ready source of a CB if I feel I need a third Ottoman war at a later stage (to save bits from falling into the wrong hands of course). I am, though, thinking over Pristina as it has a coal stock. I'll see where the WS is after I grab my goals before deciding if I can justify a scripted change for that region.

Coffee in this game seems to be in common supply. I have an updated plantation in Brazil that generates masses as well as lots of trading posts in E Africa, but globally it is a well produced item.

The British stil have their consulate at Abu Dhabi but have made no move to contest my dominance, so I'm just keeping an eye on it - I find I need to do things like chief bribing to keep my CP up (I guess reflecting their residual influence) but other than that its remaining a normal part of my Empire.

The search for WS is indeed going to force me to near complete occupation -which is a problem given the economic impact discussed above.

Soulstrider said:

Do you notice any significant penalty from colonizing out of your area? Since I've colonized everything historical in my US game, I am kind of tempted to move colonize a bit of Dubai or Africa just because.

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Not really that I've noticed. I don't gain prestige for those areas (although slowly the SOIs are moving in my favour) but I am extracting resources and no one else is contesting those regions, so I think the impact is less negative than maybe the manual implies. So I'd do it, not least to secure either key resources or to build a network of bases.

Stuyvesant said:

"Peer pressure" is such a harsh term: I prefer to think of it as "Learning valuable social skills".

Anyway, loki, when you mentioned the arrival of an impressive beard (man attached), I was sure this was the beginning of yet another Glorious Garibaldi Tale^tm. I was wrong, but oh my Italy is gifted with a deep pool of very manly beardy figures.

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I still think that is the best beard that Italy has produced so far ... it really is a ... err ... large, yes large :wacko:

Matnjord said:

That's a damn teaser you just pulled here Loki, you're at war but you're only showing the non-fighting part of it. Aaaarh! Show us the grand maneuvers, the glorious conquests, the desolate battlefields!

On another subject, that's a very manly beard.

Also, still waiting on the glorious showdown with Austria.

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well here's the opening war update ... and yes, I think I have to chance my arm on Austria next, esp if I exit this war with a very high National Morale and Prussia remains at war with GB (so hopefully doesn't back Austria). In combination, that must give me sone chance.

January-June 1876, the Second Ottoman-Italian War

And so to war. I wanted to wait till the winter snows had lifted from the Balkan mountains and had pre-positioned most of the army. A weakness is I have enough transport capacity to move one of these forces at any one time so that meant the two naval landings had to be staggered.

The basic plan called for 3 armies, of around 2500pwr each to march on Istanbul.



In effect two armies were in Tirana, 1 would press onto Thessaloniki (note this is no longer fortified for some reason), the other to go via Bulgaria and secure my flanks. As well as to take Sofia as a secondary supply route (I’ve marked the depots on the map).

A third army would land at Kavala, intercepting any Ottoman reinforcements and maybe allowing me an early start on the siege of Adrianople (still a level 3 fort).

Note the little gold star below VE's formation - that indicates he is the CinC for this theatre.



In addition, I have a corps and a colonial division in Kuwait who can advance into Iraq.


At worst, this may pin down some Ottoman units, at best I believe that both Basra and Baghdad will make the Ottomans lose NM (no particular gain to me).

Finally, G is ready to reprise his moves in the Levant. He won’t be in action till late May as the naval landing at Kavala is my priority.



Note he has less specialist guns but a lot more potentially independent divisions as I suspect I will need to leave elements behind to secure my supply lines. The formation with G is a Guards corps of nearly 1200 power in itself. Equally again note he has a little gold star - so N Africa (where he currently is) is a different 'theatre' to the Balkans.

The opening phase sees the Albanian armies marching unopposed across the mountains, veterans of the last war being surprised at the lack of resistance. Vittorio Emanuele took Thessaloniki by the end of April. His more experienced units were surprised, and very relieved, to face no repeat of the brutal fighting around this city that had marked the first war.



By late June, Italian units were besieging Adrianople and had occupied Gallipoli, preparing to deal with the weak Ottoman resistance along the Danube and to occupy Burgas.



In Iraq, the main Ottoman field army had been encountered at Najaf and was driven back despite outnumbering Umberto almost 2-1.



Basra was quickly secured, but it was clear that Baghdad was well defended. For the moment, Umberto was ordered to screen the city, keeping a large Ottoman army tied up in its defence.




By June, Garibaldi was active in the Levant



This had taken a lot longer as the fleet was low on cohesion after moving the main armies to Tirana and then supporting the Kavala landings. Thus it had had to recuperate for several turns before Garibaldi could be moved.

The end of June was marked by a series of quick victories:




Vittorio Emmanuele had pushed across the Dardenelles and routed one of the few remaining Ottoman field armies at Cannakkale. A battle essentially decided on the opening cannonade and where both the number and quality of the Italian artillery was decisive.



So by mid-summer, the more excitable parts of the Italian press were talking about achieving a bloodless victory and capturing all of the Ottoman Empire. Schemes to unite the two Romes abounded. Italy’s real war aims remained shrouded in mystery but were much more modest (Jerusalem = encirclement of Egypt and a quick route between the parts of the Empire).

In game terms, it is pretty clear the Ottomans have not recovered from the beating by first the Italians and then the Russians in the earlier wars. They do not appear on the F11 screen so I guess their overall military power is very low and from the combat results I suspect their National Morale is low (mine is 136 by June).

However, the two big forts (Adrianople and Istanbul) still stand, and there maybe more major Ottoman armies (or they may be raising fresh troops), so its not all over yet.