Different DLCs for each religion that hasn't yet been represented
make them 2 bucks each
make them 2 bucks each
Are pagans worth an entire DLC?
- Thread starter Torf the Great
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I wonder what it is about the concept of playable pagans that draws people out of the woodwork who are absolutely eager flaunt their ignorance like it's a badge of honour. Obviously, there is no one-to-one correlation between "following a non-Abrahamic faith" and any of the things you mentioned. Some pagans were tribal, some were relatively urbanised, some were more advanced than Catholics in various areas, some were less advanced in various areas. Culture is obviously subjective but it's not like any of the pagan groups in the game lacked cultural artifacts either.
That sounds terrible. The biggest problem with a pagan DLC already is that there is quite a few very different religions such that it is unlikely that they will each be given enough individual attention. Diluting the DLC with a bunch of mostly unrelated concepts would only make it worse.
The problem is that some of them would sell and some wouldn't. Tengrii, Norse and Romuva would probably sell reasonably, in that order - Romuva's a bit borderline for all Lithuania was amazingly successful. Suomensko, African Pagan and (forum enthusiasm nonwithstanding) Zoroastrian likely wouldn't. So it doesn't make economic sense to do it that way (I'd like it, granted, and I'd buy them all).
Some have suggesting breaking it into "northern" (Norse, Romuva, Suomensko) and "southern" (Tengrii, maybe some bits for Zoroastrian) pagan DLCs (I doubt anyone expects the African pagans to get anything much given they're ahistorically irrelevent even in Mali), which at least has selling points for both (play the Norse versus play the Mongols), but I truthfully expect all the pagans will just be in one DLC. We can just hope that there's some fun differentiation between them, and gameplay changes that prevent the ahistorical and silly disappearence of the Baltic pagans within thirty years of gamestart.
I hope they make SI or LoR-sized DLCs for the smaller pagan groups, though, to be honest. West Africa pagans would be a pretty cool to flesh out, but as you said it might be harder to sell. A general West African DLC might sell better, including flavor events and such for both West African pagans and Muslims, with an accompanying patch adding more provinces in West Africa (so there's a mix of pagans and Muslims). Actually, a general West African DLC is sorely needed - as you say, the African pagans are almost inexistent in CKII, while historically the region was only fully Islamicized by the 19th century, and even then many pagan traditions survive well into the present day.
Yeah, that'd be wonderful. I won't hold my breath, but we did get the African portrait and unit packs (camel cavalry!) so who knows? That's what's so awesome about the new DLC system as opposed to the big catch-all expansions - there is actually some hope that you might get something focusing on an area like Africa, whereas the chances in the old system of places like that getting attention were all but zilch. Heck, even Sword of Islam is amazing in the new experience, depth, flavour and reasonable authenticity it gives playing Muslim states compared to, say, what Muslim countries got from all four EUIII expansions.
Is the question "Is it worth buying?" or "Is it worth making?"
Paradox spent a little time on making an Aztecs DLC. Not too much, but hey, it's kinda fun, and I think if that was worth making, a DLC involving people who do actually, historically, belong on that map would certainly be worth it.
It might be damn near impossible to conquer Europe as a Norse Pagan.
But it's also damn near impossible to conquer the world as the Zulu, but that didn't keep them out of Vicky 2.
Whether you like the idea of playing pagan because it fits your religious beliefs, or because you're a gamer and really want the challenge, or because (the reason I'd have) you think it could be a cool story and you like how CK2 helps make stories...
Whatever the reasons, I totally think that a Pagan DLC is worth MAKING. I don't yet know if it's worth buying, it's not out yet. But I think it's worth Paradox's time and effort to try to MAKE one.
Paradox spent a little time on making an Aztecs DLC. Not too much, but hey, it's kinda fun, and I think if that was worth making, a DLC involving people who do actually, historically, belong on that map would certainly be worth it.
It might be damn near impossible to conquer Europe as a Norse Pagan.
But it's also damn near impossible to conquer the world as the Zulu, but that didn't keep them out of Vicky 2.
Whether you like the idea of playing pagan because it fits your religious beliefs, or because you're a gamer and really want the challenge, or because (the reason I'd have) you think it could be a cool story and you like how CK2 helps make stories...
Whatever the reasons, I totally think that a Pagan DLC is worth MAKING. I don't yet know if it's worth buying, it's not out yet. But I think it's worth Paradox's time and effort to try to MAKE one.
Agreed. That's what I like about these smaller DLCs.
A good number of people on the forum were pretty pissed about Sunset Invasion, but I thought there was at least one good thing about it - it basically showed that PI was willing to do nice little DLCs too, and not just the big DLCs like Sword of Islam or The Republic which are more or less equivalent to the old expansion packs in some respects. I'm really excited to see what sort of small little DLCs they roll up next, as there's so many regions that, while not necessarily needing SoI, Republic, or even LoR-sized treatment, would definitely be enhanced through these little DLCs. The Celtic regions, Russia, Iberia, and so on, for instance, could use a few flavor events and even one or two small unique mechanics. But I would definitely want a West African mini DLC of some sort (maybe even an East African one too along with it) - it has a really interesting and unique culture and history, one that many people don't know about. If PI were to make a mini-DLC about West Africa (even a small one with flavor events and such), I'd applaud them for trying to raise awareness about a region largely ignored in any form of historical media, despite the fact that it once was one of the wealthiest in the world, complete with a complex system of government and some of the best Islamic institutions of education in the world (i.e., they're not just a bunch of savages living in huts!)
I dont understand "lol vikings are so cool" fanboys here. "Pagan" DLC if something like that ever surfaces should focus on major pagan factions left in Europe in games timeframe. Steppe people of Cumans and Mongols. Also Baltic region around Lithuania. So called Norse religion was insignificant no matter how much you would like otherwise.
So, in your self-serving business model that you feel PI should follow, where do they get the funds to continue to create updates and new content that wasn't originally planned for the game? As someone who clearly has their own financial issues, you should understand that money doesn't just fly out of your backside. It is incredibly likely things like playable Republics and Muslims would never exist in the form they currently do, or even at all, if Paradox couldn't charge for it.
I'm sorry you don't have the money to burn on videogames, I am. But at the end of the day, your stance is completely selfish and ignorant of how capitalism, indeed economics, works. So either give an actual suggestion/solution to how PI could've released SoI and The Republic for free while simultaneously covering their expenses, or accept the fact that life isn't always fair and you can't always get the luxury items you desire.
I think the fact that it's almost crushed is part of the "romance" of it. I've played a game before with a Norse ruler and set out the goal to bring the faith back to glory, and it was a blast.
And if they bumped the timeline forwards by even a century, your entire argument becomes kaput. And even if not, the Norse faith isn't so drastically different than Romuva or Suomenusko to require a silly amount of extra attention. The stark differences between the three major in-game Northern European polytheistic faiths isn't as drastic to one another as to Tengri, which is really where there's a bit of a gap between itself and the other "Pagan" faiths. As it is, look at how PI handled Islam: in-game, the difference between Sunni and Shia is which other Muslim faith you can call holy wars and invasions against... oh, and Shia get a single holy order. They very well keep the polytheistic Europeans faiths equally generalized with a few minor differences, throw in a little flavor for each, and most people would be happy just to have a real opportunity to play as the Curonians or, yes, Erik the Heathen (or one of the more challenging Norse lords if they're up to it).
Moving the date forward by a century would make it the most comprehensive DLC yet, and that's without actually adding Pagan mechanics.
Its true, but I wouldn't throw it outside the realm of possibility. In fact, I think one of the devs even mentioned they'd like to do this with Pagans (though gods know I can't find the post... PI, please get a Dev tracker for the forum!). They've gone half a century earlier before with EUIII, so it isn't unheard of for them to do something like this... though I recognize CKII is a more detailed game in regards to who rules where, and I can only imagine the painstaking research required to get everything close to proper only become more painstaking the further back you go as there's less and less records to work with.
I've honestly held that moving back isn't a requirement for a Pagan DLC. It'd be nice, but I think part of the appeal to playing a Pagan in CKII is that you're the underdogs, and that you'd have a unique challenge on your hands: do you give in to pressure and convert, or do you fight to keep true to your faith and risk annihilation? While playing a pre-conversion Russian could be fun, you lose some of that challenge. Drop back a few decades to before Scandinavia, Hungary, and the Kievan Rus bend the knee to Jesus, and you're not quite the clear cut underdogs that the Pagans of 1066 are. Still underdogs I'd wager, but you're a longer way off from "convert or die!". But, moving the timeline to, say, 950ish would also allow more opportunities for a new conversion system to see usage.
Like I said, not necessary, I'd be happy taking a 1066 pagan realm and trying to make them into something. But a man can dream, can't he?
Zoroastrian FTW! Restore the true Persian empire and bring enlightenment to the world.... Carry on.
P.S
I'd like to see a Pagan DLC focus only a smidge on the map and holdings, and the rest on events and intrigue. The idea being that to keep yourself pagan you're going to need to be quite capable to have your liege or neighbors actually favor your company. It would make managing your family a lot more interesting.
P.S
I'd like to see a Pagan DLC focus only a smidge on the map and holdings, and the rest on events and intrigue. The idea being that to keep yourself pagan you're going to need to be quite capable to have your liege or neighbors actually favor your company. It would make managing your family a lot more interesting.