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I've heard a lot of speculation lately about what the next 4 dlc packages are going to be, and one of the major requests/suggestions is a dlc that would make pagans playable and expand on their culture and society. But it seems to me that pagans would not be a very interesting expansion to the game and would not warrant a dlc expansion for a number of reasons:

Firstly, this time period is one in which pagan culture was in decline and Christianity was sweeping across Europe. The Viking Age ends right at the beginning of the game and no other major pagan culture ever emerged. The inevitable Pagan empires that would emerge in a Pagan DLC would be dramatically unhistorical. To make it more realistic would be to make the pagan factions almost impossibly difficult.

Secondly, pagan culture, no matter how you look at it, was was less institutional and complex than Christian Europe. Social structures were based around old tribal systems with chiefs who often ruled by might not right. The dynasty focused play of CKII would not translate to pagans very well.

I really want CKII to be fully playable and I believe that the pagans are an important part of that. But I would hate to see an entire DLC dedicated to them. A DLC focused around the Northern Crusades that made the Holy Orders (especially the Teutonic Knights) playable as well would be worth my money, but there is no way that pagans alone are worth $9.99.

These are certainly not all of the reasons just the ones I could come up with off the top of my head.

Less institutional means more complex to an extent, because they still had forms of organized government. Iceland had a weird elective government with hereditary titles, Ireland and Scotland had decentralized elective monarchies that ruled over other monarchies.
Your also forgetting the Lithuanians, they lasted for awhile before going Christian and then they inherited Poland forming a Commonwealth that was one of the major players in European politics, until her neighbours wrote some laws saying she ceased to exist in the 1790s.
I read someone suggest that a Pagan DLC should be about the slow conversion to Christianity, and while that wasn't terribly popular on that thread, that would make historical sense, the reason for the conversion was power, Mieztko went from being a pagan farmer or something to a Catholic King, the Litva got people to stop invading them and legitimacy, plus new institutions largely under their control. I think there should be a choice, a hard fight to stay Pagan or a slow conversion, but it needs to be more balanced, the HRE was not centralized enough to be the steam roller it is in game, converting all the Wendels and taking the Baltic Coast was not a quick thing. Hell, the whole coast tends to go by 1100, while in history the invasions went into the 1400s, with the power of the Teutonic Order and the Scandinavian Kingdoms behind them.
 
Yes they should be given DLC but it should not cost. I am mad as hell that I can no longer play as Muslim factins. I can barely afford to pay for food and bills, so i hardly can buy DLC, which should be included into the game to begin with. I shouldn't be prevented from playing as ANY faction via mods when I could play as them before DLC was released.

Sounds like you have bigger issues than anything related to videogames.
 
You're completely missing the point of his post. What he was saying, and what he was responding to, is that the religions in the Pagan group are incredibly varied, meaning a Pagan DLC would have to cover a lot of ground. More than Sword of Islam, for instance, since it would be dealing with multiple, unrelated religions.

Incredibly varied in specifics, not in general actually. I mean not Zoroastrianism, that is a lot closer to Christianity or Judiasm. But the Baltic religions and Norse are not extremely different, lightning gods and giants. Seeing as the game isn't fantasy they won't be doing spells so the difference between a temple to Odin and one to Thor or Porunn or some Estonian God shouldn't be that big, nor the priests place in society. Even Tengriism, hes a Skygod like the others.
I'd actually go back further to the Great Heathen Invasion time period, I have a softspot for the Ui Imhair, but that would be really cool, 1066 is a little interesting because it is the end of the old dynasties, the ones that made the HRE/France, Scotland, England and so on are on their way out, the Mac Ailpins, the Knytlings (usually called the House of Gorm), the Karlings, even the Bosonids and other old Gothic families have seen their height come and go, I would like to play at their height and make these Kingdoms. Thats a big DLC though, sounds more like 2, a Pagan one and an Old Firm one, which of course requires reworking the tech system, Orthodox would be where Catholics are in 1066, Catholics where Russians are and Russians at -3.
Also Calanctus, you do sound bitchy.
 
The thing about Pagan's is that I am not really worried about them, due to the fact you can play as them. You can do "play CharID" command or simply edit "00_religions.txt" and add 'playable = yes' after 'pagan_group = {'. Sure, you are now pretty much a Western Feudal lord with some Religious specific perks and conquest CB, but it isn't totally disabled. On the otherhand.. the republics were totally unplayable and were "more interesting" (in my opinion) to play factions.
 
Norse, Baltic, and Slavic paganism at the very least have a common root in the proto-Indo-European religion. There are equivalent gods in the pantheons, as well as a lot of similar mythology. Those all would likely have a similar "feel" to them and could probably use very similar mechanics.

Tengriism and Zoroastrianism however share very little commonalities with them, and would need to be developed separately. A pagan DLC would therefore as previously stated require most likely more work than the previous major DLCs released.

As for the point of them being uninteresting and pointlessly outnumbered: I have had games happen where the Wendish crusades were utter failures. A full blown pagan Lithuania formed, and gradually devoured Poland. I've also seen games where Cumania swallows Russia and actually holds off the Mongols. Erik the Pagan winning the Swedish civil war and managing to conquer Norway. The Pagans are in a poor situation in 1066, but it's not impossible for them to thrive. It's similar to how hard it was to balance things in Spain. Spain's situation in 1066 highly favours the Muslims. Historically, the Christians turned it around. For the Pagans it's the same: the situation's very poor, but not impossible.
 
I think the PAgan dlc, if ever created (I hope so), should constist of 2 parts: pagan part (tribes on north, baltic people, soumensko, Lithuanians) with the later option of converting, and nomadic part (Oghuz, Pechengs and especially Cumans, and later Mongols). This would make this game imo really full playable for all countries and cultures :)
 
In short, very yes. Read this for my thoughts on things, because I feel this thread has outlived its purpose (Lobbying against/for pagan dlc). It's very clear that there are lots of reasons to do so, and a lot of people who'd pay for it.
 
It's possible to play Muslims without Sword of Islam, it just requires a bit of modding.

And stripping out all the muslim flavor, unique events, etc, which were not in the game before Sword of Islam came out.

You are demanding a luxury be free because you cannot afford to pay for it, which is economically laughable. You are not entitled to be given anything any more than somebody with a high income is.

And make no mistake, games are luxuries.

It isn't laughable to pay 40 dollars back when it came out only to be told "here is the rest of the game, want it? you have to fork out more cash." Your statement is invalid. I already paid for this game. I should not have to pay for updates.
 
It isn't laughable to pay 40 dollars back when it came out only to be told "here is the rest of the game, want it? you have to fork out more cash." Your statement is invalid. I already paid for this game. I should not have to pay for updates.

And you are not. You can only pay for additional, extra parts that only give the opportunity to play as someone else. The main, core part of the game is free, after u bought it. The updates are free.
 
It isn't laughable to pay 40 dollars back when it came out only to be told "here is the rest of the game, want it? you have to fork out more cash." Your statement is invalid. I already paid for this game. I should not have to pay for updates.

Playable Muslims and Republics weren't planned parts of the game. The game was about Christian Nobility in this time. They are in the game. Look at CK1! There you could never play Republics or Muslims. There were two expansions but noone introduce this feature.
 
It isn't laughable to pay 40 dollars back when it came out only to be told "here is the rest of the game, want it? you have to fork out more cash." Your statement is invalid. I already paid for this game. I should not have to pay for updates.

Really, people like you make me doubt if it was a good idea of Paradox to give away most of the content in their DLCs for free and as part of patches tied to those DLCs. You don't understand that without the DLCs you will have no patching either, and your damned muslims would have been locked and unplayable as was originally intended.
 
I reckon there won't be a single pagan dlc, There will most likely be a baltic pagan DLC, followed by a Sunset Invasionesque(?) Viking DLC or perhaps the other way around.
 
As to your question: Are they worth an entire DLC? No, just make them playable via a patch and be done with it. Lets face it, we are dealing with primitive barbarians, no interest in culture, technology, ect. (which was probably a contributing cause to their demise).

What Paradox could try is embellish a DLC by adding Jews, Jewish courtiers/nobles, making theocracies playable (with all the drama that surrounded their elections), earlier starting date (adding Vikings and traversing to Greenland and Newfoundland or Vinland would be cool), ect. But as a stand-alone DLC? Just doesn't raise the eyebrows.
 
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I think the PAgan dlc, if ever created (I hope so), should constist of 2 parts: pagan part (tribes on north, baltic people, soumensko, Lithuanians) with the later option of converting, and nomadic part (Oghuz, Pechengs and especially Cumans, and later Mongols). This would make this game imo really full playable for all countries and cultures :)

That division of pagans makes sense to me, although I hope the next expansion is centred around catholicism and improving the core game.
 
Lets face it, we are dealing with primitive barbarians, no interest in culture, technology, ect. (which was probably a contributing cause to their demise).

That statement (as false as it is) alone is a reason for a pagan DLC...
 
Well,

I don't think there will be a Pagan DLC. If you want try a Pagan character, just add playable=yes in the pagan group in the religion file.

Question is how Pagans can survive in the game. Most of Pagans are crushed in few years because they're surrounded by powerful Christians and Orthodoxies. They have absolutely no hope to belong...

Let's do a summary of Pagans :
- They're really weak (in a wealth and force PoV)
- They're surrounded by powerful Nations (HRE, Poland...)
- They're hated by everyone except others Pagans but Pagans can hate others Pagan

So, basically they can only rely on the very weak "community of Pagans". Seriously without adding some magical powers to them I don't see how it can be fun to play Pagans.
 
Well,

I don't think there will be a Pagan DLC. If you want try a Pagan character, just add playable=yes in the pagan group in the religion file.

Question is how Pagans can survive in the game. Most of Pagans are crushed in few years because they're surrounded by powerful Christians and Orthodoxies. They have absolutely no hope to belong...

Let's do a summary of Pagans :
- They're really weak (in a wealth and force PoV)
- They're surrounded by powerful Nations (HRE, Poland...)
- They're hated by everyone except others Pagans but Pagans can hate others Pagan

So, basically they can only rely on the very weak "community of Pagans". Seriously without adding some magical powers to them I don't see how it can be fun to play Pagans.

That's why a pagan DLC is needed.

Historically, the pagans did relatively well. The Northern Crusades only started in the mid 1100s, a full century after the 1066 start, and the pagans there proved to be rather capable in defending themselves, even if they ultimately lost. The Kingdom of Lithuania, in fact, stayed pagan well until 1400 - more than half a century after the last start date, 1337 - and their kings were doing good old pagan rituals and traditions like there was no tomorrow, and they only converted for political reasons.


There needs ot be a pagan DLC to give the pagans a fighting chance, and to model their conversion to Christianity/Islam properly rather than a Catholic blitzkrieg-free-for-all on northern Europe.


Lastly, everybody keeps forgetting about that one, big, bad pagan empire... the Mongols.

[video=youtube;m5nlD2CR7tI]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=m5nlD2CR7tI[/video]

I don't think they were weak or going away anytime soon.