Character with 5 kori wants to be daimyo

[furrykef]

I have a character who has 5 kori and wants to be daimyo. Unfortunately, though I do have a free daimyo slot, I can't seem to appoint him, because (if I understand the rules correctly) he needs to own at least one kori in the daimyo's kuni. But since he already owns 5 kori, I can't do this without revoking one of his existing titles, which would seem to negate the benefit (and then some).

Is there anything I can do about this? The only thing I can think of (aside from "deal with it") is not to hand out so many kori to each character, so I can hand out a kori when it's needed to appoint a daimyo. Is there a better solution?

[redstripedcat]

Actually you can give a daimyo's title to someone who doesn't own any kori in that kuni. So, you shouldn't have any problem.

[furrykef]

Hmm, how do I do it? I go to the character's Diplomacy and go to "Grant Title" and I've only seen the kuni on the list when the character already has a kori there. Otherwise it will list the kori under the kuni but there won't be an option for the kuni itself.

[redstripedcat]

Sorry, I was wrong!
I'm playing my first game and I tought I could grant any Daimyo's title to anyone, but that's wrong, he needs to have at least one kori in that kuni. I don't know what you can do (he would not accept any new kori because he already has 5, right?).

[Brick Top]

If your honour is high then you can revoke one of the titles, I suppose... Vassal opinion should normalise after a while too (especially if you give this vassal a double hit of kori + daimyo title).

[Def Zep]

BT & Furrykef, that's a good idea but... it's extremely unlikely a Kokujin will accept a revocation of any land title - even with the intention of trading it for another kori. In fact, I've never seen it happen. Even at "he might accept", a vassal will reject the request and lower his opinion of you.

When a vassal wants to be made Daimyo, it means he has characters in his own court who want land - and only a Daimyo can give this.

You have two options:

Make him Daimyo over a Kuni he does have kori in; or

Go to war. In a war, your vassals will raise their own retinues and go off conquering in your name. They will keep the kori...But if they take ALL the provinces in a Kuni, you will gain the Daimyo title to that section of Japan. (To see these, select the appropriate map filter on the left list of the mini-map in the lower right corner.) Give it to your vassal, and he will be happy.

[syndicatedragon]

My question is kind of related to the original. Is there a reason to give out titles besides when requested? Is there a limit to the number of direct vasssals you can have, or a reason why you would want to keep that number small?

[furrykef]

I think giving out daimyo titles might allow the characters in question have larger retinues. I'm not sure. In my current game I tend to just hold onto daimyo titles, especially since, unless I'm missing something, the interface really sucks at helping you find candidates for daimyo.

As for handing out kori, I'm thinking it might be best to give them out to as many people as possible, with two per person being the optimal number, because that allows each kokujin to develop a village and castle at the same time. It also gives you some elbow room if they decide to capture kori for themselves during a war. In my current game I have a kokujin with 10-12 kori (the number fluctuates a bit as wars are fought) and revolts are a constant problem. Often my vassals take care of it, but sometimes I have to take care of it myself, especially if the number of enemy troops is large or they're a good distance away from a war front.

Of course, the big problem with the "2 kori per vassal" theory is they keep asking for more and more titles. (I've started to automatically say "no" to every vassal with 5 kori because revolts are a big enough problem as it is...) The other problem is, if you keep handing out kori to characters with high stats, you won't have anyone left to become Master of Ceremonies/Arms/the Guard if your current ones die.

[Def Zep]

I think giving out daimyo titles might allow the characters in question have larger retinues.

Correct. Retinues are increased by +3 for being a Daimyo, and by +1 for each village improvement at level 3, and at levels 6-8.

You can see the modifiers in the Military menu, by mousing over the number in the Retinue Cap line.

Of course, the big problem with the "2 kori per vassal" theory is they keep asking for more and more titles.

Yes. They can even get themselves into a bind doing this. I've had cases where a Kokujin with 4 kori has asked for the next one to be granted, gone out and conquered a fifth on his own during a war, and then, when I offer him the next province title to keep my promise, rejects it because it will put him at 6 & raise his revolt risk. In this case, you have to wait for the time limit on the promise to expire (incurring a malus), or give the next kori to someone else instead (breaking your promise and incurring a double malus!).

(I've started to automatically say "no" to every vassal with 5 kori because revolts are a big enough problem as it is...)

Good idea. That's what I do.

[Def Zep]

My question is kind of related to the original. Is there a reason to give out titles besides when requested? Is there a limit to the number of direct vasssals you can have, or a reason why you would want to keep that number small?

1. For kori, it's risky to hold more than 6 or 7 on your own - the revolt risk is simply too high. Getting down to 6 kori or less in your personal desmesne is wise in this game.

2. Rewarding a particularly important vassal by making him a Kokujin or a Daimyo can cement his loyalty to you and ensure that of his immediate heir. Through judicious granting of titles, you can do what the leading Samurai did historically, and build an heir or a close ally up, raising their opinion of you and keeping them loyal as a strong "right hand".

3. You can have as many vassals as you want. However, grooming a "right hand man" and making him a fellow Daimyo can let you keep your own court manageable, while building his up. Ambitious samurai in your own court will constantly petition you for kori and compete with one another for honor within the clan; they may or may not support your designated heir, desiring leadership themselves. Having a strong partner can alleviate this, and protect against rebellion.

4. More vassals means you are winning, so from that standpoint, they're better than small ones. However, certain characters, especially ambitious ones, will not remain content with no opportunity for advancement. Eventually, they (or their heir) will either leave your clan and go join another, or revolt and start a civil war, if overlooked for too long. It is important to monitor their personal honor; if it gets high enough, they will breakaway and declare their independence to become Daimyo if they cannot do so under your banner. Part of the challenge of Sengoku is finding the right balance.

[syndicatedragon]

Thanks for the hints.

If you keep denying kori to your vassals, doesn't that cause their opinion of you to become really low? Is that important? How can you recover from that?

[furrykef]

No, because 10 is the maximum their opinion can fall for being denied a title. After that, it doesn't matter how many times you deny it, the penalty will stay at 10. You can see this by mousing over their opinion on the diplomacy or character screen; it'll show you the modifiers that cause the score to be what it is. Some of these modifiers will also wear off over time. I've been denying titles over and over and only occasionally do I have a problem with a character with low opinion.

Low opinion is bad because, if it falls low enough, that character may start a rebellion. You'll see an icon at the top of the screen when a rebellion is possible (same area you see icons for ninja, ronin, deficits, etc.). I think this happens at around -35 or -40 opinion. If their opinion is higher than that, it doesn't really matter what they think of you.

It might be worth considering granting a title to prevent opinion from falling further if it's very low. I don't really like that idea, though, because if a character is a problem now, he probably will be again, and you don't want to give more power to somebody who might start a civil war. Better to give gifts (adds 10 opinion for a while), or order seppuku/hire a ninja if this wouldn't be enough.

[syndicatedragon]

No, because 10 is the maximum their opinion can fall for being denied a title. After that, it doesn't matter how many times you deny it, the penalty will stay at 10. You can see this by mousing over their opinion on the diplomacy or character screen; it'll show you the modifiers that cause the score to be what it is. Some of these modifiers will also wear off over time. I've been denying titles over and over and only occasionally do I have a problem with a character with low opinion.

Ah, so it's not cumulative. That's handy to know. The "kori demand" dialog implies that it will be -10 every time you click no.

I didn't realize there was a "gift" option. I should probably pay closer attention to the diplomacy screen.

[furrykef]

I should add that the "denied kokujin title" and "denied daimyo title" penalties are separate, though, so if you deny both, the character's opinion will drop by 20 rather than 10. Breaking a promise also carries an extra penalty on top of these, so much better to deny outright than to promise and not follow through on it.

[Def Zep]

Breaking a promise also carries an extra penalty on top of these, so much better to deny outright than to promise and not follow through on it.

Yes, wise advice. Yet another reason I always follow Nancy Reagan's advice in Sengoku and "Just Say No"

If you keep denying kori to your vassals, doesn't that cause their opinion of you to become really low? Is that important?
(SD)

It does, and low opinion makes them susceptible to being wooed by another clan. They may break off and start plotting a civil war, or leave you and become somebody else's retainer.

You'll have to judge how important the vassal is to you. Some families have a surplus of characters and can afford to lose any that don't want to stay; others like the Tozawa are constrained and can't afford to lose anyone. They need to grow. Some characters will have a high Martial skill and be as valuable as gold, but be ambitious and constantly demand new titles.

At some point, if you're winning, you'll have more than enough kori and titles to pass around. Japan is a big place, and you can only safely manage 6 or 7 kori of your own, max. It won't be that big of a deal to give the extras away when you're about to declare yourself Shogun!