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Thread: R.I.P. Salem

  1. #1
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    R.I.P. Salem

    In spite of my best expectations I don't see any valuable gameplay ideas in Salem (same as H&H). What we have here is no more than a server engine demo. No viable game mechanics or business model have been introduced. Client side software is developed by enthusiasts.
    Sandbox, crafting and permadeath (what supposed to make Salem exclusive and unique) have no implemented (or even designed) game-mechanics behind them. The game is always born on a paper, but not in an aimless feature implementation on a given engine. Game engine is secondary.
    Everything good about this game is only supposed to be, but still doesn't exist. Developers are amateurs. They've always strive for lulz and forum drama. And suddenly they've found that it's not possible for a commercial game (forums are modded, care about customers and such). I eagerly (and hopelessly) wait for them to get some expirience in game-design from Paradox.

    What I am trying to say that we don't have any Salem here. Salem "to be" has nothing in common with Salem "we have". Thus the idea of beta-testing is questionable. It's more like a focus group, where we think devs are drawing precious ideas for development. This makes community active. Nevertheless lack of devs feedback does opposite. Why the hell do we hunt bugs in game mechanics that won't be implemented at all?

    The only buisness model for a sandbox MMO today is $30-50 subscription for the first month ($14-10 recurrent) AND NO DEMO! You pay a lot of money to get into the game and quit disillusioned after a week. And this model works. Newcomers generate sufficient amount of money for a small dev-company to get by (loyal subscriptions are a bonus). In-game mechanics don't matter at all. All that matter is a list of features. The more lengthy and inspiring it is the more new subscribers are attracted. Thus F2P doesn't work with sandbox MMO, unfortunately. Producers love sandboxes because of user-generated content (supposed to be). In-game content is always expensive. User-generated content is free. But IRL user-generated content is limited to buildings aligned to represent F-word.

    I bet devs are trying to present permadeath like some kind of social auto-balancing in-game mechanism that will bring new sense to a sandbox. But really they've always used this "would-be-USP" to generate lulz and drama. No more. There is just no way they've invented a new way to use it for good. And there is no way they could conduct some worthwhile social experiments on that ground.

    Release date is Q3 2012. I don't see any way for Salem to get worthy in a couple of months. So we're all about to be disappointed. R.I.P. Salem.

  2. #2
    Corporal

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    I think your either a. mad that the server is down or b. spoiled by the crap games that are on the market right now =P

  3. #3
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    I dont think the devs are looking for ideas at all, as they probably had most of the mechanics they wanted implemented in previous builds in the past. For whatever reason, they are taking their time introducing new features and I'd imagine after the big reworks of combat and purity, we will be back to the steady patch intervals that we had before the purity wipe. Some things just take time. I do agree that their lack of input on the forums is a little disheartening, but if you are so upset with the game then why are you still here?

    Also, I'd like to know the drama behind your post as it is quite apparent that something happened to you ingame or in rl that made you want to write such an epic post about Seatribe's method of game development. For me, it'd be a much better read than OP as it is now.
    Of all the things I've lost, I miss my mind the most. - Ozzy Osbourne

  4. #4

    Ikor This Bud's For You!

    Ikor,

    This message is from a combat vet to you, "Love it or leave it"!!! You are not required to play this game. If you do not like it take that trash some place else! Keep up the good work Dev's! At least someone is trying to make a good sandbox!

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Ikor View Post
    I bet devs are trying to present permadeath like some kind of social auto-balancing in-game mechanism that will bring new sense to a sandbox. But really they've always used this "would-be-USP" to generate lulz and drama. No more. There is just no way they've invented a new way to use it for good. And there is no way they could conduct some worthwhile social experiments on that ground.
    Well if you played Haven and Hearth at all you would see why they implement permadeath. You probably are the same person that went on youtube, viewing videos of salem and said "this looks like a Haven and Hearth rip-off herpety derp" without doing the research. You dont like it, dont play it. Go play games that spoon feed you your content that you have no sense of accomplishment in.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gotrek65 View Post
    I think your either a. mad that the server is down or b. spoiled by the crap games that are on the market right now =P
    This. So perfect. +1

  6. #6
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    OP. I agree with a few of the things you say... but not your final conclusion.
    Salem is the game many MMO gamers claim they want. It's a Sandbox. It's PvP.
    Done right - It could work and be a lot of fun for people who like that sort of thing*
    There is potential here. What is done with that potential remains to be seen. But yes, Q3 2012? er... no.

    *please note too though - the number of people who claim they like that sort of thing is much larger than those that actually do like that sort of thing. Everyone likes to say they are "Hardcore" but being faced with 'losing' several hours/days of 'work' most gamers don't really like it at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by RUSloshed2 View Post
    Ikor,

    This message is from a combat vet to you, "Love it or leave it"!!! You are not required to play this game. If you do not like it take that trash some place else! Keep up the good work Dev's! At least someone is trying to make a good sandbox!
    Comments like this are not helpful.

    I play and have played a few MMOs. Some are quite hard on new players / players that are not 100% familiar with the rules / game mechanics.

    Telling players to "learn 2 play" / "STFU and go back to WoW" / "QQ" and other such glib phases tends to have one effect... they do, in fact, leave.

    That might sound great (you know - less "whining 'tards and noobs" in your game?) but the reality is that it leaves a wasteland. For MMOs to function you need population. 40-60 "hardcore" / 1337 players really doesn't cut it for either the players or, more importantly, any serious developer.

    It kills games.

    I have played some damn good MMOs on empty servers and watched them die.

    So, if you want to play and enjoy games like Salem - try to help people and encourage them to stay - not chase them out the door, huh?

  7. #7
    Czar,

    I have a hard time spoon feeding people that act like this. Lets face it games like this are not meant for everyone. Also, creating messages that bash a game in its early stages tend to not bring in more people as well. I am open to any suggestions you may have as to what should be done to retain players that just can't hack it.

  8. #8
    Normally I do not endorse telling people to stop playing or tell them dont let the door hit you on the way out. But in this case. Its a little over the edge. I used to work in a customer based industry, and the short end of it is that some people you just cant please. and someone complaining in the beta, when half the stuff isnt implemented yet, saying that this game is crap and yadda yadda, you wont please. Salem doesnt need those type of players.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by RUSloshed2 View Post
    Czar,

    I have a hard time spoon feeding people that act like this. Lets face it games like this are not meant for everyone. Also, creating messages that bash a game in its early stages tend to not bring in more people as well. I am open to any suggestions you may have as to what should be done to retain players that just can't hack it.
    The game is not in it's early stages. It's in Beta.
    And yes - there will be players that "can't hack it". But the trick to the survival of the game is to reduce the size of that group and make the number of players that can hack it big enough to make sure the game survives.
    So that's where we are now.
    I would suggest you re-read the OP. Are you seriously telling me you can't find one point in there with a little bit of validity to it?
    Sure, I don't think the conclusions are valid - and I agree that the thread title is "trollish" and premature... so debate the points... not the poster.

  10. #10
    So, once again may I ask how you would retain these people who can not take playing a game like this? To me the game is still early but thats simply my opinion. Do you not agree that bashing a game while its in Beta will end up hurting the population as well? Either way lets face it it's going to be a crap shoot. Telling these people who can not hack it to either get lost or allowing them to bash the game is going to hurt the population. I would rather see these people to the door and get them out of here but thats just me. Also to address your comment about re reading the OP, yes the Dev's seem to be amateurs. I do believe though that a beta is to help pin point problems as well as list ideas for the game to make it better. My point to all this is simply this.... Is it really necessary to talk all this crap about a game because either your not good at it, don't understand it ect... or should we be giving pin pointers to make it the game we all would like it to be?

  11. #11
    General Demi Moderator
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    How to put this nicely....

    This is going to be a niche game. The devs know that, I think Paradox knows that. It's potentially a revolution in gaming... or maybe going back to gaming's roots. There doesn't need to be tens of thousands of players. Games can survive on a dedicated base of under 1000 players as long as there is enough income. I can name more than a few that have. Some games that have had the plug pulled for "not enough income" have been right out of the gate and didn't see enough sales to even recoup development costs within a reasonable time frame (1-2 years at most is reasonable for small indie projects, 6 months for larger ones). Some games that have had the plug pulled would have remained profitable if the managing company had wanted to bother with the small amount of income or dedicate the needed money to fixes.

    In summary: cry less, cry more; stay or leave... nobody (the players) here really cares much when the project isn't even half done. If there was a dev team of a dozen or more programmers, I'd expect bug fixes and such to roll out relatively quickly. Instead, Seatribe is one programmer and one designer. I think they're doing a great job and doing their best to stay in contact with people.

    How many threads like this does there need to be on this forum? How many times do people have to say the above? Do people get some kicks out of posts like these?

  12. #12
    Corporal RedKGB's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by MagicManICT View Post
    How to put this nicely....

    This is going to be a niche game. The devs know that, I think Paradox knows that. It's potentially a revolution in gaming... or maybe going back to gaming's roots. There doesn't need to be tens of thousands of players. Games can survive on a dedicated base of under 1000 players as long as there is enough income. I can name more than a few that have. Some games that have had the plug pulled for "not enough income" have been right out of the gate and didn't see enough sales to even recoup development costs within a reasonable time frame (1-2 years at most is reasonable for small indie projects, 6 months for larger ones). Some games that have had the plug pulled would have remained profitable if the managing company had wanted to bother with the small amount of income or dedicate the needed money to fixes.

    In summary: cry less, cry more; stay or leave... nobody (the players) here really cares much when the project isn't even half done. If there was a dev team of a dozen or more programmers, I'd expect bug fixes and such to roll out relatively quickly. Instead, Seatribe is one programmer and one designer. I think they're doing a great job and doing their best to stay in contact with people.

    How many threads like this does there need to be on this forum? How many times do people have to say the above? Do people get some kicks out of posts like these?
    +1

  13. #13
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    Fair comment RUSloshed2: So to give an idea of what I mean:

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikor View Post
    In spite of my best expectations I don't see any valuable gameplay ideas in Salem (same as H&H). What we have here is no more than a server engine demo.
    It's not theme park and there is no 'questing' or 'leveling' in the sense many of us are now used to... but in fact there is a form of character progression there. It's simply not 'directed'. The purpose of the game seems to be to survive... which considering the setting seems appropriate? How, you do that is up to you.
    No viable game mechanics or business model have been introduced.
    I am puzzled by how they intend to turn a profit here? Item shop maybe? This could be a good or bad thing (depending on how it's run) but since I don't know anything about any plans here it's too early to tell.
    Client side software is developed by enthusiasts.
    Yes. That has me a bit baffled too. I can see pluses and minuses here.
    Sandbox, crafting and permadeath (what supposed to make Salem exclusive and unique) have no implemented (or even designed) game-mechanics behind them.
    To many gamers... that is more than enough for a game depending on how it fits together? But as for where Salem is now... I still cannot make a judgement.

    etc

    Now as for how to retain these people who can not take playing a game like this?
    I agree, you can't.

    But you certainly don't do the game any good by reinforcing what people say about the game and its community when you retort in a hostile way.

    What you can do is point out errors in points made and where trying to retain players point out strategies and alternate gameplay ideas (which many players have trouble developing on their own).

    In any game - a good community can go a long way toward balancing out in game issues and also giving the game a good reputation.

    If someone wants to leave... let them... but don't burn bridges. Make it clear that as far as you are concerned the game is good (perhaps it could use improvement? have they posted their ideas?) and you hope they will return someday with different expectations.
    If they want to be an arse - let them - but don't lower yourself to their level.

  14. #14
    For the people flaming this thread: If you don't have anything to contribute to a thread beyond "ur a nub luv it or leve it," you should probably just shut up and stop polluting the forums with your mindless blather. They're here for constructive discussion, not for pissfights and ad-hom.

    Now, to address the worthwhile posts. I think OP's rant is a little hyperbolic, but he does have a point: The game is very barren at this moment in time. It desperately needs production-quality graphics, (I'm just talking about decent textures for everything here) interface streamlining, a less humiliating combat system, something resembling an endgame and a number of other things. Frankly, at this point, Salem feels less like a beta and more like the perma-alpha that Haven and Hearth has become. This is not to say that the game lacks promise. That people so loyally play (and rally to defend) such an incomplete game is testament to what Salem has to offer. I hope, though, that Jorb will avail himself of the skills and experience the people at Paradox have to offer, and strive to make a polished, professional product - and not another public beta that costs money to play.

    TL;DR - Salem is a good idea. But it needs a shitload of work, and if you disagree, you may be deluding yourself. This isn't Haven. This is a game people are going to (hopefully) pay money to play. It has to be good.

  15. #15
    No revolution comes without usability. And devs never heard of it.

  16. #16
    Paradox Interactive TotalyMoo's Avatar

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    Everyone is entitled to his opinions, there's no need to jump the OP for having his.

    Now, the thread is neither constructive nor does it serve any other purpose than starting fights.

    If you have concerns about the game, divide them into the aspects you feel need adjusting and post separate threads in the appropriate forum parts.

    Closed.
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