Magna Mundi cancelled

[Pandadan]

Some people are giving Paradox a lot of flak for being the cold, ruthless publisher. Some are praising them for the maturity to be the same.

The most practical business move for PI would have been to cancel the project the moment they found out MMtG passed its intended ship date without core mechanics (diplomacy, war) implemented. Every day since then has been PI giving UV a chance to turn it around and save a project that, IMHO, was of dubious profitability to start with. The proud label of "a niche of a niche" is not something a marketing department wants to try to sell.

Poor management clearly is at the heart of MMtG's failure. I'm not condemning Ubik as a person, but he was clearly in over his head, made some early poor choices about budget and team structure, and then failed to prioritize team tasks in a useful way. A team of hobbyists working on free mods have different needs than a team of professionals that needs to ship a saleable product.

This has really been a kind of fascinating case study of well-meaning folks trying to make the leap to a professional team and not quite making it.

Unless UV coded with their foot and knowing that they started from PI code, I highly doubt that...
I joined once a project for a MMO server coded in java. My experience with java was at that time that I knew how to make an Hello World. It took me 1 week, 2h a day to know how it was working.
It's not so long. Sure, you won't know everything, but you'll know how it's working overall and most of the time it's enough to fix basic problems.

I'm glad you were blessed with such a well-written codebase to work with. ATM I have to coordinate with a programmer who's enthusiastic, friendly, sloppy, documents almost nothing, and never thinks beyond the quick fix to the immediate problem. Sometimes he'll just leave a vital part of a feature unimplemented because it was non-trivial and he moved on to something easier/more exciting. He'll reinvent a wheel for some module and then fail to support the specific things we need that wheel for in our program. He makes me curse and facepalm a lot.

That's what Netscape thought too: http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articl...000000069.html

Interestingly, I've worked with both the Europa and the Clausewitz engines, and I can tell you that some of the code is identical (and even has headers dating from EU1 days).

I was thinking of Daikatana's famous mid-development engine switch, myself.

@RhoDazz,

That suggests someone was tight with cash or failed to do their accounting sums or embezzled.

I had a response to this, but StephenT scooped me more than adequately:

It's just the nature of things.

MMtG and CK2 had the same budget.
MMtG had four times as many developers and was in development for twice as long as CK2.
Therefore the amount paid per person per day for MMtG was only 1/8 that paid to the CK2 developers.

1/8 a developer's salary isn't enough to live on, so the MMtG team could only work part-time, in between regular day jobs. Presumably Ubik assured Paradox that a team of 20 part-time developers would be just as good as a team of five full-time ones. Sadly, he was wrong.

Whether there was also mismanagement or waste of resources is a separate question.

[Badger Baron]

The most practical business move for PI would have been to cancel the project the moment they found out MMtG passed its intended ship date without core mechanics (diplomacy, war) implemented. Every day since then has been PI giving UV a chance to turn it around and save a project that, IMHO, was of dubious profitability to start with.

Yeah, the idea that PI should look past this "minor" failure and just let UV make the last finishing touches to the game seems kind of naïve, when you consider that they've already given the developers more chances than pretty much any other company would. PI isn't being super mean, they've just stopped being overly nice. There should have been milestones along the way, clearly describing the kind of expectations PI had. If the timetable slipped, they should either reevaluate it based on Ubik's plans, or simply cancel it right then and there. This surely can't be Ubik's fault alone, but the only thing you can really fault Paradox for is letting this go on for too long. I wonder what the reaction would have been like had the game been cancelled half a year ago.

[RhoDaZZ]

It's just the nature of things.

MMtG and CK2 had the same budget.
MMtG had four times as many developers and was in development for twice as long as CK2.
Therefore the amount paid per person per day for MMtG was only 1/8 that paid to the CK2 developers.

1/8 a developer's salary isn't enough to live on, so the MMtG team could only work part-time, in between regular day jobs. Presumably Ubik assured Paradox that a team of 20 part-time developers would be just as good as a team of five full-time ones. Sadly, he was wrong.

Whether there was also mismanagement or waste of resources is a separate question.

That is a sensible observation (one that is missing from the news pieces done on this, when viewed from the gaming industry, small story). I would like to add another footnote though, if I may: The project from the start was started as a mod-to-game idea. This means that to have all the different components of the mod included, you'll need as many of the specialists who did them on board as possible. This in turn means that the budget from the start is very stretched and it remains a modder/partime/non-job-occupation (I'd rather have this wording, but you can insert professional if you like) thing. This was of course realised and accepted by everyone (including Paradox when they did the contract) from the start but how the decision was made to keep this setup intact is not clear and it doesn't matter now. What matters is that in the end this cooperative-modder ideal fell just short of making a game that was satisfactory to the new criteria of the publisher, and no matter how close it was, it means we ultimately have no great game to play.

Maybe in 20 years we can have a meetup and celebrate the release of Magna Mundi when Clausewitz I becomes freeware.

[berggren]

Maybe there will be some news next week.

On Johans twitter he says they will be two nice announcement on these forums in next week.

We are all allowed to hope

[Konstantinos XV]

Hm. What is the usual place to look for these kind of announcements? Announcements-from-Paradox-Interactive?

I mean. It might be not relevant to MM. However, I'll want to know if the announcements were made in order to learn if they're relevant.

[siis]

Hm. What is the usual place to look for these kind of announcements? Announcements-from-Paradox-Interactive?

I mean. It might be not relevant to MM. However, I'll want to know if the announcements were made in order to learn if they're relevant.

I think:

http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/...lopment-Studio

and

http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/...ox-Interactive

-

I guess one announcement is about this Napoleon game they got from ageod(?).

[ywhtptgtfo]

People are seriously suggesting they release a game that only runs for 50 years? Yikes. Paradox isn't going to release Magna Mundi because the game is mind-bogglingly bad. Combat and diplomacy were only recently added in. It crashes constantly, with beta testers reporting they couldn't go more than three years. Paradox is not going to make people pay for a worse EU3, and good for them.

I'd probably not want to keep repeating that 50-year CTD thing. One of the devs (k_merse) asserted that it is not true and had been attacking people for making statements on that for a while. Even though he seems to be the type who'd put a cloth over a pile of vomit to pretend everything is clean, it's pointless to argue with him when the program itself is not open to public assessment.

In other words, let's just give him the benefit of doubt that the 50 years CTD thing was a misunderstanding caused by poor communication on his part... at least until someone like Ignavich or Zeitgeist comes over and says "k_merse, get on Skype now".

[Vijfde Colonne]

I read the news some time ago, but now I just have to post my two cents. I've been eagerly anticipating this game for some time now, thus it is a blow for me to see it cancelled. I enjoyed the mod to it's full extent and will surely go back to it (Christmas MoMod is great!) once I have some leisure time. Alright, bad news, move on.

What this thread has degenerated into however, is sickening me to my stomach. Instead of mourning over the loss of this game, whose premise was great and unprecedented, this thread has partly evolved into a grave-pissing contest of who can insult the maker(s) (particularly Ubik) the most. These degenerates consist of two categories:

(1) Ubik didn't like my suggestions for Magna Mundi, boohoo!! He's a bad man!! Now I have to get back at him!!

(2) Framed!! Piracy!! Magna Mundi is too challenging to me!! Boohoo!!

The people in these categories now go to all means to show their disrespect for a team who were devoted to bring the Magna Mundi fans a standalone game. By trying to make a point this premise sucks and the modders-gone-professional suck you're just overly insulting the fans and makers who wanted to see this strategy game come alive. If you think the premise sucked... then why the hell are you here? You're just dancing on Magna Mundi's grave, which is pretty sick.

[Col.HoganGer90]

I read the news some time ago, but now I just have to post my two cents. I've been eagerly anticipating this game for some time now, thus it is a blow for me to see it cancelled. I enjoyed the mod to it's full extent and will surely go back to it (Christmas MoMod is great!) once I have some leisure time. Alright, bad news, move on.

What this thread has degenerated into however, is sickening me to my stomach. Instead of mourning over the loss of this game, whose premise was great and unprecedented, this thread has partly evolved into a grave-pissing contest of who can insult the maker(s) (particularly Ubik) the most. These degenerates consist of two categories:

(1) Ubik didn't like my suggestions for Magna Mundi, boohoo!! He's a bad man!! Now I have to get back at him!!

(2) Framed!! Piracy!! Magna Mundi is too challenging to me!! Boohoo!!

The people in these categories now go to all means to show their disrespect for a team who were devoted to bring the Magna Mundi fans a standalone game. By trying to make a point this premise sucks and the modders-gone-professional suck you're just overly insulting the fans and makers who wanted to see this strategy game come alive. If you think the premise sucked... then why the hell are you here? You're just dancing on Magna Mundi's grave, which is pretty sick.

Congratulations, now you did your own part on 'degenerating' the thread...

[Dangeroustom]

Magnadrone rant

Framed and piracy didn't make the game hard, they made the game unfun and people said this over and over.

But the cancellation of this game goes far beyond that and Ubik isn't able to let go. You are mistaking honest criticism for trolling and grave dancing.

[Clophiroth]

Framed and piracy didn't make the game hard, they made the game unfun and people said this over and over.

As I said previously, I have had a lot of fun dealing with pirates, both common pirates and Berber, and being both Christian suffering them, or Muslim trying to use them...


I only have had Framed once, then, I can´t talk about it

[BigDuke66]

1) Lack of progress
2) Lack of trust;
3) Internal strife within the MM team

I see it like this, appoint a new leader and get rid of all ballast, that should resolve points 2 & 3.

The lack of progress can of course only be resolved by working on MM for many more months and that seems to be the main problem as Paradox doesn't want to put any more money in this project.
In the light of this, can't the people interested in MM pull something out of the hat?
Something like Kickstart Development(that worked for Shadowrun, it funded the game in less than 48 hours) or something similar to get the funds to finish the project?
A Beta release was mentioned often but I don't see that coming because Paradox doesn't want to get back to the reputation they once had, even if that is now labeled as a real beta release and not a real release like it was usual years ago.

[Dangeroustom]

As I said previously, I have had a lot of fun dealing with pirates, both common pirates and Berber, and being both Christian suffering them, or Muslim trying to use them...

Are you some kind of sadist?

[Vijfde Colonne]

Framed and piracy didn't make the game hard, they made the game unfun and people said this over and over.

But the cancellation of this game goes far beyond that and Ubik isn't able to let go. You are mistaking honest criticism for trolling and grave dancing.

I like these events, so speak for yourself. Magna Mundi unfun? Well I disagree! Why your continued interest in a cancelled game you didn't like anyway? You're Just trolling.

[Dangeroustom]

I like these events, so speak for yourself. Magna Mundi unfun? Well I disagree! Why your continued interest in a cancelled game you didn't like anyway? You're Just trolling.

So I can't suggest ways to improve the game if someone tries to revive it?

[Homero]

this thread... a grave-pissing contest of who can insult the maker(s) (particularly Ubik) the most...You're just dancing on Magna Mundi's grave, which is pretty sick

The circus must goes on.

[Alfred Packer]

In other words, let's just give him the benefit of doubt that the 50 years CTD thing was a misunderstanding caused by poor communication on his part... at least until someone like Ignavich or Zeitgeist comes over and says "k_merse, get on Skype now".

I see what you did there

[Vijfde Colonne]

So I can't suggest ways to improve the game if someone tries to revive it?

Your game already exists. It's called Europa Universalis III.

[Dangeroustom]

Your game already exists. It's called Europa Universalis III.

No it isn't EUIII.

Frankly I find EUIII to be lacking.

I was really looking forward to MMtG but then Ubik couldn't get over the fact that all his contributions made MMtM unfun.

Imo, MMtM has the potential to be a really fun mod if certain elements were removed or optional.

[ywhtptgtfo]

The people in these categories now go to all means to show their disrespect for a team who were devoted to bring the Magna Mundi fans a standalone game. By trying to make a point this premise sucks and the modders-gone-professional suck you're just overly insulting the fans and makers who wanted to see this strategy game come alive. If you think the premise sucked... then why the hell are you here? You're just dancing on Magna Mundi's grave, which is pretty sick.

I like these events, so speak for yourself. Magna Mundi unfun? Well I disagree! Why your continued interest in a cancelled game you didn't like anyway? You're Just trolling.

If you haven't read the jaw-dropping things the devs (i.e. k_merse, Zolotaya, and Helius) wrote in this or the previous 50-60 paged thread, you should probably do so as it'd give some context on the negativity directed at UV. As far as I know, the treatment of the developers was not homogeneous. While k_merse, Zolotaya, Helius, and the CEO were subjected to the tomato treatment, other devs like Ignatich and Zeitgeist are still greatly respected and praised throughout all this.

While I'd admit there are elements of amusement and curiosity that drive the on-going discussions and critiques, it is important to note that much of the controversy was sparked by the problematic behaviour demonstrated by a number of UV employees. For instance, the repeated public insults they threw at Paradox and fans is probably unprecedented in the whole game industry.

Now, let's wait for the next angry MM apologist to come in and repeat the same speech (more or less).