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Thread: Magna Mundi cancelled

  1. #1001
    the Conqueror Peter Ebbesen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Merrivale View Post
    I think that whole post is worth quoting Peter, thank you for finding it. Note the comment that he had spent more time on MMtG than CK2 during the same timeframe.
    Well, that was to be expected and doesn't really say anything about MMtG.

    CK2 had a project lead Johan has years of close work relations with - like all good co-workers, they have a good idea of how each other think and how to interpret the other's statements; CK2's project lead is also a veteran games developer - so he talks the same professional language as Johan. This, together with close proximity, means that producing CK2 almost had to be less work than producing MMtG - the only situation where it wouldn't be expected, would have been if the CK2 project ran completely off track while MMtG didn't.
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  2. #1002
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    Quote Originally Posted by Merrivale View Post
    To be fair, I think he was joking, although the thread makes for interesting read given subsequent events.
    Probably, though even back then people were annoyed by what seemed like arrogance and hubris. And yes, interesting reading indeed. That one and the 700.000! thread.

  3. #1003
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    Quote Originally Posted by Megamuslim View Post
    EU3 and HOI3 were terrible at launch, filled with bugs, awkward interface, ran poorly, had retarded AI, and were a mess all around. It took years and several expansions to turn EU3 what it is and HOI3 is only in half decent state after 2 expansion packs. I honestly suspect this has more to do with mutual dislike between the studios than the game not being up to Paradoxes obviously tremendous standard for newly released games. I also suspect a big part of the problem was Ubik, who even in his half joking manner was always fairly arrogant and frustratingly cryptic (not that paradox has been any clearer with its PR, especially the childish treatment of dragging their problem with UV into public). "A sad state of affairs" indeed.
    Two things:

    1) Two wrongs do not make a right. "They already published bugged games, they could have released this, too" is a TERRIBLE attitude.
    2) Paradox took quite a beating with SotS2, and after that they promised (publicly) that they would have published only good releases. CK2 and AHD have been following this way - polished, no bugs, no crashes.

  4. #1004
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fishman786 View Post
    But Ubik is Magna Mundi! Didn't you know?
    "Magna Mundi is over. I am Magna Mundi."
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  5. #1005
    Quote Originally Posted by WeissRaben View Post
    Two things:

    1) Two wrongs do not make a right. "They already published bugged games, they could have released this, too" is a TERRIBLE attitude.
    2) Paradox took quite a beating with SotS2, and after that they promised (publicly) that they would have published only good releases. CK2 and AHD have been following this way - polished, no bugs, no crashes.
    In some respects this does smack of changing the rules after the game has started...undertaking a project expecting one quality standard, only later to face a higher one.
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    Quote Originally Posted by EUnderhill View Post
    In some respects this does smack of changing the rules after the game has started...undertaking a project expecting one quality standard, only later to face a higher one.
    This too is a terrible attitude. Cutting himself some slack, just because "it's a Paradox game, they won't expect much"? No, please.

  7. #1007
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    Quote Originally Posted by EUnderhill View Post
    In some respects this does smack of changing the rules after the game has started...undertaking a project expecting one quality standard, only later to face a higher one.
    The project couldnt have expected to be held to the quality standard of bad games. They would have expected to produce the best game possible.
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  8. #1008
    Captain Merrivale's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Ebbesen View Post
    Well, that was to be expected and doesn't really say anything about MMtG.

    CK2 had a project lead Johan has years of close work relations with - like all good co-workers, they have a good idea of how each other think and how to interpret the other's statements; CK2's project lead is also a veteran games developer - so he talks the same professional language as Johan. This, together with close proximity, means that producing CK2 almost had to be less work than producing MMtG - the only situation where it wouldn't be expected, would have been if the CK2 project ran completely off track while MMtG didn't.
    You make good points, but my main thrust wasn't that this was a surprising situation, just that all of the people claiming the costs of MMtG to Paradox had to be minimal and would be if they didn't cancel the game were off-base, not just from a funding situation but people at Paradox's time. It's not just a case of one person checking in with them from time to time and taking a few days to test RCs.

  9. #1009
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    Quote Originally Posted by PreciousTritium View Post
    I never got why PAY GOLD was included in the tagline. It's very mundane.
    Perhaps it was an unsubtle hint towards Ubik not being paid enough?

    Quote Originally Posted by PreciousTritium View Post
    What if Call of Duty's tagline was:

    CLICK MOUSE,
    SHOOT GUYS,
    GET SCORE,
    DO IT AGAIN.

    Actually I wish more games had mottoes like that.
    That's pretty good, and actually I'm sort of surprised they've never used it. Perhaps an Activision dev will see it and report it back to HQ?
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  10. #1010
    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Ebbesen View Post
    It is crystal clear to me: Paradox retains the right to start up a new project using some or all of the existing work ...
    A new project is not "this project". Itīs not clear.
    Itīs not what they said: "Universo Virtual (UV) will not be part of this project"
    Thre is a huge difference between "this project" and "a new project".

  11. #1011
    Annoying Latvian binTravkin's Avatar
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    If Johan has spent more time in MMtG than CK2, that gives us some hope as it would indicate he saw potential (CK2 was the "main" project for Paradox at the time).
    And the Lord spake, saying, "First shalt thou take out the Holy Pin. Then, shalt thou count to three, no more, no less. Three shall be the number thou shalt count, and the number of the counting shalt be three. Four shalt thou not count, nor either count thou two, excepting that thou then proceed to three. Five is right out. Once the number three, being the third number, be reached, then lobbest thou thy Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch towards thou foe, who being naughty in my sight, shall snuff it.

  12. #1012
    How sad, I really looked forward to this game.

    I must admit however that I always had a strange feeling about the game, mainly about ubik. This is not a personal assault, I think he is a great developer with great ideas, but not exactly good at public relations. His comments were often vague, strange and he seemed to be very reluctant at taking criticism/suggestions seriously. (The hated "the game is very moddable" argument, which Paradox itself uses way too often as well.)
    Wether this was the language barrier or his sence of humor, it doesn't matter. The developers have never appeared very professional to me, though I trusted in their modding experience.

    I suppose its a wise move to cancel the game, rather then release another unfinished game which takes ages to fix after release, damaging Paradox' name even further. The chief loss is that I was really waiting for a deep, immersing and plausible game like MM was intended to be. It may well take a long time before someone dares to try this again after this failure.
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  13. #1013
    the Conqueror Peter Ebbesen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EUnderhill View Post
    In some respects this does smack of changing the rules after the game has started...undertaking a project expecting one quality standard, only later to face a higher one.
    I am not usually a betting man, but I am damn well willing to bet that the contract doesn't state "needs to pass our quality assurance as it is of <some fixed date>", but rather something like "needs to pass our quality control". I am also damn well sure that the expected standard to meet hasn't changed - the expected standard is always high - what has changed, as Fredrik made clear in January, is not the goals of working together with others and doing QA to ensure high quality releases, it is the methods, because the old ways had failed.

    This does, de facto, mean that it'll be harder to pass a game now - not because a higher standard of quality is expected, but because it will (hopefully) be less easy for lower quality to manage to pass by mistake.
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  14. #1014
    Quote Originally Posted by Homero View Post
    A new project is not "this project". Itīs not clear.
    Itīs not what they said: "Universo Virtual (UV) will not be part of this project"
    Thre is a huge difference between "this project" and "a new project".
    It's just being profesionally polite I'm afraid. I wouldn't expect Paradox to give UV another budget now.
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  15. #1015
    the Conqueror Peter Ebbesen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Merrivale View Post
    You make good points, but my main thrust wasn't that this was a surprising situation, just that all of the people claiming the costs of MMtG to Paradox had to be minimal and would be if they didn't cancel the game were off-base, not just from a funding situation but people at Paradox's time. It's not just a case of one person checking in with them from time to time and taking a few days to test RCs.
    You are right, of course, but anybody who thinks it is cheap for a publisher to do its part in getting a project through production, marketing, and testing should have his head examined.
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  16. #1016
    Captain Merrivale's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bitmapmedivh View Post
    Probably, though even back then people were annoyed by what seemed like arrogance and hubris. And yes, interesting reading indeed. That one and the 700.000! thread.
    Wow, I missed that one: http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/...t=mm+700%2C000

    In addition to being a fun read, it casts some doubt on the total downloads figure.

  17. #1017
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zzzzz... View Post
    OMG! The gall!

    More drama bomb!
    I just thought of Lumpy Space Princess from Adventure Time when you said that...
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  18. #1018
    Quote Originally Posted by WeissRaben View Post
    This too is a terrible attitude. Cutting himself some slack, just because "it's a Paradox game, they won't expect much"? No, please.
    Absent any contract language to the contrary, would not Paradox's own releases be the benchmark for what the company considered a finished product?
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  19. #1019
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    Quote Originally Posted by binTravkin View Post
    If Johan has spent more time in MMtG than CK2, that gives us some hope as it would indicate he saw potential (CK2 was the "main" project for Paradox at the time).
    Or if you'd like to be cynical, CK2 didn't need a lot of oversight because it was developed by experienced professionals who followed a schedule and polished their game, while MMtG was made by an unproven studio that played down its issues and put out a string of disappointing release candidates.

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  20. #1020
    Quote Originally Posted by Tapochki View Post
    Naw, I'm just keeping my options open. I'm not condemning anyone. It may seem like he is "specifically filing a lawsuit to clear his name". But as someone said before, Ubik is Portuguese, and not a native speaker of english. This could lead to a different written form - and his words could (as in, may or may not) mean he has hopes for "winning this", still.
    Bottom line: Don't judge him until you know the whole story - unless you do know all the unpublished facts? If that's the case I'll step back and tip my hat.
    Let's assume Ubik was bringing this lawsuit to "uncancel' Magna Mundi. As publisher, Paradox has the legal right to axe the project at any time if they see fit, particularly when it's gone far behind schedule (and possibly overbudget). Even if all that was needed to complete the project was a single bracket, Paradox COULD, in theory, axe the project right there and then and nobody would be able to say "boo". As such, trying for a lawsuit is suicidally insane in the same way that leading a cavalry charge across the Pacific is insane. So if that's what he's intending, Ubik is off his rocker.

    Let's assume, then, that Ubik is bringing this lawsuit because he wants to "clear his reputation". In this case, however, trying for a lawsuit (which is something of a long shot to begin with given the circumstances) would mainly have the effect of giving him a reputation as "that guy who brings lawsuits against his publishers when his publisher cancels his project after it was 15 months behind schedule," which is an utterly terrible reputation for a designer to have and would make it more than a little bit difficult to find future funding for his projects, whatever the result of the lawsuit. So if that's his plan, Ubik is off his rocker.

    So let's assume instead that Ubik is bringing this lawsuit out to act as a lightning rod for discontent, thereby absolving the rest of the UV team of blame. This is a pretty loopy theory to begin with, but the problem is that if this was his intention, he would be FAR more successful and would gain FAR more respect by making a public statement saying "It's all my fault, the rest of UV is extremely dedicated and talented and it was my errors that led us to this state." It would also have the side effect of not needlessly pissing off Paradox and wasting their time and money. So if that's his intention, this lawsuit plan shows that Ubik is off his rocker.

    There really isn't any way this lawsuit can end well for Ubik, which is why people are accusing him of being a madman or a fool. Either he has woefully misjudged the situation, or else he believes reality to be different from what it actually is. Neither option is to his credit, and both have distinctly unpleasant implications about his management of Magna Mundi. It also doesn't help that available evidence (beta testers, UV devs, the long delay to begin with, etc.) doesn't really support the idea that Magna Mundi was pretty much ready to be released when Paradox killed it.

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