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Most Complicated unintuitive game released

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Dearmad said:
That made my EYES BLEED! WTF? Is the underlying game good though?

I'll read through it a bit, but AAAAAAAAAGH!!!!! :wacko:

This is the funniest quote from the site:
"Extended ASCII character set rendered in 16 colors (including black) as well as 8 background colors (including black)."

And this is the saddest:
"Craft treasures and furniture from many materials and improve these objects with precious metals, jewels and more."

Yeah man I'm there- crafting my dorfish ascii furniture!
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DF is already most impressive game/simulator I have ever seen, and it's barely a third done. It's basically a fantasy life simulator.

The lack of graphics is so that the developer can focus exclusively on the mechanics. Everything from the civilization scale to the individual peasant is modeled. Every person has their own traits and personality which are far more detailed than CK2, all of which is both inherited and modified based on experience. Economically, you pretty much create everything using the crafting system and go through all(or at least most) or the real world steps. So to get a sword you need to mine metal(and each metal is different with relatively correct properties), build a smelter and metal forge(which requires building materials like stone, and also an anvil for the forge), smelt the ore(which needs coal or another ignition source), and then forge the sword. Of course, then the person/dwarf that uses the sword needs the proper skills or else it doesn't do them much good, which they can train using various methods.

There's really too much to go over in a short post, but if you can get over the graphics(there's also tilesets out there that make it at least look like SNES graphics and cause a little less bleeding) and terrible UI it is one of the most detailed worlds ever created in a game.
 
You know, I first saw this thread and thought... no way, Ck2 was easy to get into and it's as simple and straightforward as anything. Then I realised that before release I'd spent hundreds of hours playing CK-DV and a year reading this forum regularly. Many of us knew how to play the game before it was even released.

Personally I think it is straightforward once you get your head round the concept, and I'd say it's worth putting a bit of time into trying to learn it.
 
Does it say something about somebody when their first post on a forum is to make somebody else feel small?

Give the guy a break.
 
This game is -very- easy to pick up if you've played Vicky or EU3.

And even then, this game doesn't 'require a degree' to get into. It just takes about a day or two to get used to, and then you learn as you go. That's how my friends managed.
 
MylesSCP said:
DF is already most impressive game/simulator I have ever seen, and it's barely a third done. It's basically a fantasy life simulator.

The lack of graphics is so that the developer can focus exclusively on the mechanics. Everything from the civilization scale to the individual peasant is modeled. Every person has their own traits and personality which are far more detailed than CK2, all of which is both inherited and modified based on experience. Economically, you pretty much create everything using the crafting system and go through all(or at least most) or the real world steps. So to get a sword you need to mine metal(and each metal is different with relatively correct properties), build a smelter and metal forge(which requires building materials like stone, and also an anvil for the forge), smelt the ore(which needs coal or another ignition source), and then forge the sword. Of course, then the person/dwarf that uses the sword needs the proper skills or else it doesn't do them much good, which they can train using various methods.

There's really too much to go over in a short post, but if you can get over the graphics(there's also tilesets out there that make it at least look like SNES graphics and cause a little less bleeding) and terrible UI it is one of the most detailed worlds ever created in a game.
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I love the idea, I really do. I'm going to give it a whirl fully knowing I'll be excited for about two minutes and then when the novelty wears off I'll swiftly uninstall and forget.
 
DF is easy if you're the right person for it, it takes a certain kind of person but it's not as hard as people like to boast it is. It's a fun and unique game, developed with true love and not a purse, they guy lives off donations and I pay him 6$ every month and it's the best money spend knowing I contribute to this brilliant mans lifework.

I don't get how people can claim CK2 is hard though, my two friends who never played Grand Strategy before picked it up in few hours and soon we were playing MP 12+ hours.
 
LittleJP said:
I figure when the first post is rather aggressive and attacks what most of the forumites that frequent here stand for, yes.
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I don't think the first post was that aggressive to be honest, just a bit frustrated. I say we should try to channel his frustration into learning the game, rather than punching his keyboard saying 'what a bunch of wan&ers on that forum'.

I don't stand for anything, I just like CK2.
 
If the game is uninituitive, that's because it's unlike other games out there, which it is in a GOOD way. Intuition is simply a function of what we're used to. If there's a way to introduce something entirely new in an inituitive way and you know how such a thing should be carried out, I'm sure you'd have a bright future as a marketing genius.

Heck, the first time I played a Paradox game (EU1), I cursed at how I couldn't find out how to incorporate occupied Pskov into Muscowy, not realizing that it's done via making a peace treaty. I didn't even dare click the Offer Peace button to see what was behind it, thinking that doing so would constitute an offer of white peace and restoration of status quo ante bellum. And here I am.
 
My first Paradox game was HOI3. The learning curve was like running headfirst into a brickwall. CK II doesnt really compare to HOI3 in complicatedness, but that may just be cause Ive played Paradox games for a while now. I suggest that you should try and figure it is that you dont like, or find complicated, instead of coming to the forums to whine without any reasoning other than its hard, that is if you want positive feedback and advice from the community.
 
I would not play this games if it was easy and intuitive. I'm «hardcore gamer» but only for complicate game of gestion. Damn i hate Diablo 3, the game for «hardcore casual farmer»
There is some useless feature in this games, but i suppose some people like that.
 
MylesSCP said:
and terrible UI
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The funny thing is, while I basically would like to agree, once you've figured out all the keyboard shortcuts in DFII and don't really need to read the UI anymore for building stuff, it's actually quite fast and comfortable to use. And it certainly doesn't have any of those "right click on portrait, then right click on the pop-up to get more pop-ups, then click on any of these options to open a different menu" things like CKII has. Who ever thinks of right-clicking on a button (except maybe people familiar with PI games ;) )? That's counterintuitive, making the game more difficult to figure out without really doing anything positive for gameplay...

Complex doesn't always need to be complicated. DFII is certainly a difficult game but even there it's just common sense that you need to mine minerals, then smelt them, then forge something. It's perfectly intuitive 'cause we all know that that's basically how smithing stuff works. Besides, even Settler or Anno games have that type of production chain. Perfectly normal ;)
 
There's a certain tendency to get defensive, even when what's being defended is in some cases indefensible.(This is not an indefensible case, but people are getting snotty.)

The topic says it's 'complicated' and 'unintuitive'.

The first? Yes.

The second? Also yes.

The game is hard to learn, hard to master. And the hardest part is mindset, as people have noted. You and I and most immediately think of expansion and growth and conquest and growing the country. Still do in my case. I still need to completely practice what I preach.

That's...not always a good thing as I've discovered. especially when succession comes and you struggle like hell to keep it together because everyone hates you, especially if you've suddenly made large gains. Overly strong vassals break loose. Overly weak vassals are useless for providing enough force to fight others(internal or external).

There's fun here, to be sure. I'm enjoying it. But that doesn't make it less complex or 'unintuitive'. I can't imagine getting someone else into it. They've tried very hard. The tutorial explains a lot, as can the hints system. The trouble is putting what you've learned into action and 'getting it', without getting stomped. And/Or learn to not worry about getting stomped. That's really, REALLY difficult.
 
Keanon said:
DF is easy if you're the right person for it, it takes a certain kind of person but it's not as hard as people like to boast it is. It's a fun and unique game, developed with true love and not a purse, they guy lives off donations and I pay him 6$ every month and it's the best money spend knowing I contribute to this brilliant mans lifework.

I don't get how people can claim CK2 is hard though, my two friends who never played Grand Strategy before picked it up in few hours and soon we were playing MP 12+ hours.
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I actually picked up DF pretty fast, and I picked up CKII pretty fast when I adopted essentially the same mindset (hey, it's just a really complex sandbox game).

Strangely, I never was able to really pick up EU3 or HOI3. (And this was after way too much time spent on all of the major games on the Europa engine). I probably should go back to those now that I'm more used to the Clausewitz Engine.
 
People on these forums are very likely to get offended and react badly if someone suggests "dumbing down" Pdox games for the masses. For many of us Pdox games are the last bastion of decent challenging games.

HOWEVER, the fact is that Pdox games ARE very hard to get into and learn. Once you do, there is always (in my experience) one of the very best stratagy games you will encounter. EU3 is easily my most played game ever and I only found it a little under a year ago.

But Pdox needs to make much, much, much better tutorials as in 1000000% better. A tutorial letting you play a count in Ireland and guiding you through the first 100 years, showing all the mechanics, helping you join ireland and then letting you continue from there, would have been a good idea for CK2. The fact is, PDox games are not as complicated as people make out - once you get the hang of them - its just many people probably give up before that stage due to the complete lack of any kind of learning curve. Pdox are losing futuresales due to this i have no doubt
 
Learn by doing. I have been playing both Europa Universalis, Hearts of Iron and Victoria and all their sequels but I agree Crusader Kings 2 was quite tricky to get into. So basically what you have to do is to choose a rather easy country and just learn the mechanics, try stuff and learn by trial and error sort of. The game is truly awesome when you get a hold of it! ;)
 
blackdown said:
It's not complicated, but it doesn't stick to a standard interface that you can port skills across from other games.

Which is good, because it offers a fresh challenge.

I'd personally question whether MTW:2 is easier to understand then CK2 to be honest, CK2 is pushing the envelope on how simple a grand strategy game can get.
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Funnily enough, I'd already played tons of MTW: 2, but going back to that from EU3 I spent ages trying to work out the economy and diplomacy...until I realised they didn't exist.
 
Like most Paradox games, also CK2 requires a certain mindset; the game is not only about winning. The devil is in small details here and there. If you really wish to master it, then first and the foremost, forget about a result.
 
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