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Thread: Most Complicated unintuitive game released

  1. #41
    Paradox games are games you play, fail at many times but learn something new everytime you do, and once you know enough to stand on your own feet in the game. You'll understand the game better bit by bit, and every bit you come to understand will fuel your drive to play the game better and more to your own fantasy and play style.

    But yeah...you have to fail at the game ALOT and really badly before you understand how it works.

    I booted up vicky about 10 times before I even understood that game.

    EU2 needed like 7 boot ups.

    EU3 needed only 3 but thats because I was finicky on who I wanted to play as.

    CK2 I learned in 5 game sessions. The tutorial really helped me get along in the beginning to understand the basics. Really good that was added even tho it was broken at some points.

  2. #42
    First Lieutenant Jck2's Avatar
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    I would also like to add that anyone struggling to learn how to play these games should watch some let's play videos on youtube. You can learn alot watching someone else play the game.

  3. #43
    I approached CK II, my first PI game as the same goal as Dwarf Fortress. Fail as spectacularly as possible. Not that I really had to try. 300 years of succesion crises as the King of Wales and sometimes England finally let me get the hang of basic succesion.

  4. #44
    First Lieutenant sumdood's Avatar
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    Don't forget you can turn down the difficulty too until you get a good grasp of the game.

  5. #45
    The only 'unituitiveness' i had with CK II was the dynamic of noble ranks and feudal titles and organization between them and the actual territory each title is attached to...

    I've known what a "count" was or a "duke" and what the hell feudalism was, clearly... I've even taken AP european history in high school years ago...

    But damn if i wasn't shown FEUDALISM feudalism as starkly as i have in this game.

    Really mind bending at first...

  6. #46
    I think what makes CK2 a little more "overwhelming" is the fact that it's one of the most sandboxy Paradoxe game.
    I remember that in my first EU3 game, missions and national decisions encouraged me to experiment with the game by giving me small objectives. "Oh I must reach 2 stability to complete this mission, allright how do I do that ?" or "To form Russia I need to annex Tver, okay let's try", these little goals encouraged me to learn different features of the game separatly. Mission after mission, decision after decision, I grasped more and more aspects of the game. After a while I started to combine my accumulated knowledge to fulfill my own personnal objectives.

    In CK2 there are no such things, you are lost with no indication and no objective. It's easier to learn how to convert provinces if you are incented to do so, if you are not why would you ?
    It wasn't a problem for me when I bought the game, as I knew how PI games worked by the time, but I can understand that someone who isn't used to be left alone in a sandbox will feel lost and will not know how to start.
    Last edited by Archam; 17-06-2012 at 00:48.

  7. #47
    It also helped to have read through A song of ice and fire, and have a complete lack of morals.

  8. #48
    Benevolent Imperialist flame7926's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LittleJP View Post
    It also helped to have read through A song of ice and fire, and have a complete lack of morals.
    Yeah this. I also read the thread for the mod of Game of Thrones, which helped me understand the concepts more.
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  9. #49
    Second Lieutenant Link Strife's Avatar
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    Even though I have been playing Paradox games for over a decade (the first one was the original EU, I think), I can relate with the fans who find CKII difficult to grasp. If I play HOI3, Victoria II or EU3, I can tell at a glance "what's mine". The borders are easy to see and I know what territory is mine, I know what units are mine.

    A few years back, I have tried Crusader Kings (Deus Vult) and I did not stay interested for very long (and not just because of the big noses!). Last year, I tried Sengoku, but again it did not grab my interest as much as the other games had. I blamed that on all those unfamiliar japanese names (who was who and what was where). I did not like the fact that I could not grasp "what was mine". I have a whole bunch of provinces but directly control just a handfull of those. I can raise vast armies but those are limited by my vassals' opinion of me, and most of the time I don't control them myself (when the vassal is powerful enough). Threats can come from inside my realm as much as from the king next door.

    I can almost hear you say "Well you are not controlling a country, you are controlling a dynasty... playing a single character". But hear me out. Let's say I start the game and I have two sons. They are part of my family, part of my dynasty. When I die, I get to play as my older son and heir. As the player, I now have a brother whom I must contend with. He is part of my family but he is not really part of what is now my dynasty. In fact, he can easily become my ennemy. It is all these "inside politics", all these plots, all those secret manoeuvres that I find difficult. The game is not as straightforward as most games. But of course, this is exactly what the game is all about.

    I just recently bought CKII and I truly want to like it. I intend to invest the necessary time to really understand the game. The game received great reviews so there has to be a great game burried there.

    P.S.: To those who think that Paradox games in general are unapproachable, I say that PI has come a long way. I remember the original HOI (a real mess that was) and Victoria: An Empire Under the Sun (unplayable out of the box) where tutorials were non-existent. Still, it is always a labor of love to finally come to grips with those great games.

  10. #50
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    This is the simplest Paradox game I've played so far.

  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Red_warning View Post
    This is the simplest Paradox game I've played so far.
    Yeah, seriously. OP needs to go buy Victoria II. Then he'd have something to whine about.

  12. #52
    Field Marshal tnick0225's Avatar
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    I learned this game from screwing with the demo for a good week or two Although the demo was super buggy and had its own special quirks to it. I played EUIII when it first came out, for a while, so understood what I'd be getting into by buying CKII.

    But to what the OP says about MTW2, it is an entertaining game I usually only play those for the battle sequences as they're about the only redeeming quality of those games. I can see how it can be a bear to get into though. I played three different times as William the Conqueror in England and it showed me alot about how you can seriously jack your country up by giving certain individuals certain titles. But I've grown to love the game, while I was learning on the demo and making my mind up to by it I spent countless hours reading the AARs that were up at the time and other threads here in the forum. Some of the AARs are actually good places to learn from.

    And to people who say this game has an enormous learning curve (it does a tiny one) and that its click happy. Well PI games and CKII included don't even come close to the learning curve and clickity click happiness of Eve Online, that MMO will warp your mind trying to get into, but perhaps thats why I was able to adapt quicker to CKII's sandbox of greatness.

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by russthapuss View Post
    When you decide to purchase this game you should not expect nothing like brainless smashy-smash aka M:TW 2 style. These two games are two completely different titles, and IMO now when I master everything in CK2 I would never trade it for a different medieval game.
    I wouldn't ever say Total war games are brainless smashy-smash........... Most battles require alot of strategy in those games.

    As well as that , i would NOT say CK II requires a degree or anything close to it. The game is fairly simple once you understand its mechanics. The issue isn't thats it requires constant brain use or otherwise , its actually alot like riding a bike. Once you learn the mechanics , its easy. The primary source of confusion , id wager , is the mentality that Kings rule over all their holdings with complete sovereignty. When in truth , the time period was no where near the perceived state of centralization.

    But i can understand where the op is coming from. Learning said mechanics in the beginning can be tricky. I skipped the tutorials completely , they didn't help much. I simply forced myself through a few games till i got the hang of things. I will say , its hard to ever actually "Lose" a game of CK II , so i feel there is always room to learn via simply playing. And there are many gamey designs that actually make the game fantastically easy , even for new players i.e assassination spams , betrothals limted to player only , ai never valuing grandsons ect. Overall if you are willing to play the game without min / maxing , it will reward you.
    Last edited by Kynaz; 17-06-2012 at 05:10.

  14. #54
    First Lieutenant Snaggleooo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stauffenberg13 View Post
    Yeah, seriously. OP needs to go buy Victoria II. Then he'd have something to whine about.
    Vicky 2? Go with Vicky 1. I tried so hard but never did understand how to play properly. Or Pride of Nations; that was brutal.

    On topic though, your enjoyment can be seriously affected by who you play as. I've played CK2 quite a lot, but I still get overwhelmed as an Emperor or (sometimes) a King. Being the HR or Byzantine Emperor may look awesome to a newcomer, but you seriously have to know exactly what you're doing. If your character has poor stats or too many ambitious vassals, your gonna have a bad time. I agree with all those who say starting as an Irish lord is the best option; it's how I started to understand the game. Going as a duke in the Byzantine Empire (as long as you're not a neighbour of the Muslims) is also a good way to learn how to manipulate marriages and claims with little chance of accending to the overwhelming complexity of Emperor (which can, and often does, happen in the HRE).
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  15. #55
    Lt. General Keanon's Avatar
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    You should try this.
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  16. #56
    I actually found this the hardest paradox game to learn and I'd played CK1 a lot. So yeah I see where he's coming from but I hate the idea of dumbing down paradox games just like everything else is dumbed down whether it's music films tv newspapers everything.

  17. #57
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    Hoi series is the worst, easier to work than playing that game

    CK, EU, Eu:Rome all very similar and the easiest to grasp while Victoria series is right on the middle.

  18. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keanon View Post
    You should try this.
    That made my EYES BLEED! WTF? Is the underlying game good though?

    I'll read through it a bit, but AAAAAAAAAGH!!!!!

    This is the funniest quote from the site:
    "Extended ASCII character set rendered in 16 colors (including black) as well as 8 background colors (including black)."

    And this is the saddest:
    "Craft treasures and furniture from many materials and improve these objects with precious metals, jewels and more."

    Yeah man I'm there- crafting my dorfish ascii furniture!

  19. #59
    I steer clear of the more complex games because most of them are in fact needlessly complex and burdened by poor UI.

    Crusader Kings 2 is neither, and I am perfectly fine that a large slice of the population still cannot grasp it. There is always Risk.

  20. #60
    Major Ryasyr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by saenz View Post
    Clearly you haven't played Vicky or Pride of Nations. :P
    Does vicky 2 count? im still trying to get the hang of it.

    Never played pride of nations thou

    I find CK2 quite simple to learn, but complex to master.

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