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Thread: Whats the deal with Iceland?

  1. #1
    Sayonara Zetsubou Robusuta
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    Whats the deal with Iceland?

    I was always curious as to why Iceland was made up of 2 provinces while there are many other large islands throughout the world that are only made up of 1 province to represent it. As far as I've read about Icelandic history, I can sum it up like this, 'NOTHING HAPPENED', there was some climate change but after the age of the Sturlungs which happened 100 years before the start of MEIOU, there wasn't much else. There are some economic differences between the coast and the hinterlands but never in its history has Iceland ever for a moment... been split up politically other than for internal administrative divisions. There is always talk, over a lack of available provinces for other areas, but for some reason, Iceland has 2 provinces when it could easily be represented by one and that other province could go to some place where it's needed.

  2. #2
    Alluccate: "Viva 'o Rre!!!" Ciccillo Rre's Avatar
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    In CK2 it's divided up in two provinces as well, maybe for that period such a division was more relevant. I have nothing to object to a two-provinces splits, as long as single provinces' population is accurately reflected.

  3. #3
    Sayonara Zetsubou Robusuta
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ciccillo Rre View Post
    In CK2 it's divided up in two provinces as well, maybe for that period such a division was more relevant. I have nothing to object to a two-provinces splits, as long as single provinces' population is accurately reflected.
    Well in the timeframe of Crusader Kings Iceland was in the grip of strife, with the local chieftains of Iceland battling the King of Norway for sovereignty of the island

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_the_Sturlungs

    But that ended in 1264 but after that, that was it.

    I'm not against island splits either, in fact, I think they're very important, but in Iceland's case, it really doesn't need 2 provinces when there are other provinces that need splitting and now that new provinces are more or less finite at this point

  4. #4
    Simian Commissar SirkTheMonkey's Avatar
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    Maybe the two provinces are because of how physically large Iceland is? It's at least three times as big as Sardinia and Sicily and they get more provinces.

    You argue against 2 provinces because the area is uninteresting. What if a nationalist Insular Norwegian rebellion succeeds and the island is split between independent Iceland and mainland occupiers? What if two North Sea powers end up grabbing half each to use as a base for colonising North America?
    Alternatively, the boring argument could be made for lowering the province count of Australia. After all, its history between 1356 and 1856 is Indigenous peoples, a few European discoverers deciding that arid Western Australia wasn't worth the effort, a Brit discovering it from the other direction and realising there's greenery there after all, and convict settlement followed very late in the game by gold discovery and a minor rebellion.

  5. #5
    F-CEO of EUIV:MEIOU and Taxes gigau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Semi-Lobster View Post
    [...] while there are many other large islands throughout the world that are only made up of 1 province to represent it. [...]
    Which ones ?
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  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by SirkTheMonkey View Post
    and convict settlement followed very late in the game by gold discovery and a minor rebellion.
    I must be forgetting my history... Was this the Eureka Stockade? Or have I got things mixed up again?

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Blxz View Post
    I must be forgetting my history... Was this the Eureka Stockade? Or have I got things mixed up again?
    Yes

  8. #8
    Sayonara Zetsubou Robusuta
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    Quote Originally Posted by gigau View Post


    Which ones ?
    Sakhalin/Karafuto:
    Starting 1679, the Matsumae Clan of Japan began settling portions of southern Sakhalin (which they called Kita Ezo), all while not knowing that the area was a peninsula or an island. The strait was finally mapped by Lapιrouse in 1787 and by the Japanese in 1808 by Mamiya Rinzo. Both found the northern part of the island was inhabited by Ainu tribes.

    Canary Island:
    The Conquest of the Canary Islands was not a simple swift action by the Spanish, it was a long, bloody battle for control and was split into 2 clear phases, the first between 1402-1405 and the 2nd phase taking place over 60 years later, between 1478-1496.

    Marajσ:
    The largest island in the world surrounded by Fresh water and about the size of Switzerland and historically was the most important centre in Para province, during the Portuguese rule of Brazil, Marajo was administered separately from Para as the County of Ilha Grande de Joanes

    Jamaica:
    During the 18th century, Britain lost control of vast swaths od the Jamaican hinterland to free black Slave communities called Maroons
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Jamaica
    After several failed attempts to retake these communities, the British signed a treaty with these communuties, in exchange for their peace and autonomy they would return any escaped slave to their plantation and would fight alongside the British in case of invasion.

    Crete:
    Crete could easily be divided into 2 provinces to represent the 21 year long Siege of Candia by the Ottoman Empire
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Candia
    For 21 years the Ottomans ruled and administered the entire island of Crete except the Venetian's Capital, Candia (Heraklion)

    Cyprus:
    The Ottoman invasion of Crete was done in 2 parts, the capture of Nicosia and the Capture of Famagusta nearly a year later after an 11 month siege. The Island was then subject to intense colonization by the Ottomans, where the population fluctuated between a narrow Muslim and Christian majorities.

    Both Cyprus and Crete are fairly large islands, in game it is far too easy to capture them, and historically, it took more than a single siege to take full control of the islands.
    Last edited by Semi-Lobster; 17-06-2012 at 19:10.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Semi-Lobster View Post
    Both Cyprus and Crete are fairly large islands, in game it is far too easy to capture them, and historically, it took more than a single siege to take full control of the islands.
    Actually- almost every province should be "take more than single siege". On the other hand- there were situations in history, when great parts of countries were ceded without single siege (Roman Empire- after battle Battle of Manzikert or Pol-Lit Commonwealth war with Sweden in XVII age). In CK2 it was well done, sadly EU3 don't have such possibilities.

  10. #10
    Perhaps Sakhalin is a good example of a big island that needs to be divided into two provinces but is only represented as one in MEIOU.

    While Iceland has always been united, Sakhalin was historically divided in two: as part of the Sakhalin Oblast and Karafuto prefecture of Japan.



    What's even more exciting about the island is that due to the fog of war on the Japanese part, they thought the northern part of the island was a peninsula connected to the mainland and thus part of Manchuria of the Qing dynasty. Therefore, they were afraid of settling further north and eventually Qing ceded Manchuria to Russia.

    Years afterwards, they realized that it was an island and claimed sovereignty on the whole island. However, the Qing recognized it as one of its tributary states and accordingly when Manchuria went to Russia, it was effectively included as it was considered part of Manchuria. Of course this kinda ticked of Japan a bit because all those time they could've claimed the whole island...

    The island was only unified in 1945 and also served as a strategic point of interest in the Russo-Japanese War and World War II.

  11. #11
    F-CEO of EUIV:MEIOU and Taxes gigau's Avatar
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    Here's a list of islands that are represented with 1 province (except for Iceland that has two), with their sizes in km2 :

    Code:
    Greenland => 2 130 k
    
    Iceland => 102 k
    Sakhalin => 72 k
    
    Tasmania => 65 k
    Marajo => 40 k
    
    Jamaica => 11 k
    Viti Levu (Fidji) => 11 k
    
    Cyprus => 9k
    Puerto Rico => 9 k
    Corsica => 9 k
    Crete => 8 k
    Buru => 8 k
    Zealand => 7 k
    And even there, i think some have been skipped.

    Iceland is twice the size of Marajo, 10 times the size of Jamaica,...

    Marajo was treated like the neighbouring land provinces, and i don't think that should change... or do you want me to double the number of coast provinces in South America ?

    Why Iceland and not Sakhalin ? Sakhalin is a colonizable province, same size as or even smaller than the neighbouring land provinces. And, much like Tasmania, it's hardly colonized during the course of the game.

    Caranies, Cyprus and Crete i might consider for splitting in two... but we need to remember the effect of the number of provinces of performance
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  12. #12
    Topaz-Fisted Demi-God Moderator Mr. Capiatlist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by leppuno View Post
    Perhaps Sakhalin is a good example of a big island that needs to be divided into two provinces but is only represented as one in MEIOU.

    While Iceland has always been united, Sakhalin was historically divided in two: as part of the Sakhalin Oblast and Karafuto prefecture of Japan.



    What's even more exciting about the island is that due to the fog of war on the Japanese part, they thought the northern part of the island was a peninsula connected to the mainland and thus part of Manchuria of the Qing dynasty. Therefore, they were afraid of settling further north and eventually Qing ceded Manchuria to Russia.

    Years afterwards, they realized that it was an island and claimed sovereignty on the whole island. However, the Qing recognized it as one of its tributary states and accordingly when Manchuria went to Russia, it was effectively included as it was considered part of Manchuria. Of course this kinda ticked of Japan a bit because all those time they could've claimed the whole island...

    The island was only unified in 1945 and also served as a strategic point of interest in the Russo-Japanese War and World War II.
    I believe ALL of that is outside the time frame of the game. During MEIOU it is best leave it as one island.
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  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Capiatlist View Post
    I believe ALL of that is outside the time frame of the game. During MEIOU it is best leave it as one island.
    Nope, the problem goes all the way from the 17th century when the first Japanese colony was established there.

    It was traditionally claimed as part of China because the Ainu tribes there had been paying tributes since the Yuan dynasty. Because it was thought to be connected to the mainland, the Japanese only colonized the southern parts because they were afraid of sharing a land border with Qing China (and thus making the Northern Ainus to be a buffer against Qing). It was only when it was discovered to be an island that the Japanese started to subjugate the northern parts but by that time, Russia already started colonising the Northern parts thanks to the claim from Qing China.

    Also, one can only imagine what would happen if the Chinese knew that the island was being colonized by the Japanese. However thanks to the technology of the time, they weren't able to map the whole island and the opposite ends of Sakhalin remained unknown to both sides. Imagine if Qing hadn't ceded Manchuria and decided to annex Sakhalin, only to find Japanese settlements to the South, wouldn't they dispute it and declare war on Japan?

    The reason why no one decided to declare war on anybody till modern times is because the area is uncharted till the 19th century and by then, declaring wars had become a bit tricky. Still, they did it and Sakhalin allowed the Japanese to win the Russo-Japanese war.

    Since MEIOU allows the whole world to be explored as early as the 1500s, I think it's pretty possible that Russia/Jurchen won't just let a powerful country like Korea or Japan to settle the whole Sakhalin without declaring a war or two. Sakhalin is dangerously close to Manchuria with only a thin strait connecting it to the continent. Japan/Korea could easily put doomstacks there and transport them over the strait and conquer China if only they knew of its geography.

  14. #14
    F-CEO of EUIV:MEIOU and Taxes gigau's Avatar
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    Let's say i'm not dismissing Sakhalin just yet... but i'll decide later. I hope you'll agree it's not a priority
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  15. #15
    Sayonara Zetsubou Robusuta
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    Quote Originally Posted by gigau View Post
    Let's say i'm not dismissing Sakhalin just yet... but i'll decide later. I hope you'll agree it's not a priority
    It's not a priority but it would be a welcome addition to East Asia to better represent the situation to represent how utterly clueless everyone (Russians, Japanese and Manchus) was until La Perouse and Mamiya Rinzo properly mapped the island and how wrong they were about this massive island on their doorsteps. I'm at work now but if there isn't a crossable strait between Ezo and Sakhalin there should be, the La Perouse/Soya strait is only 27 km at its narrowest, smaller than Sweden's current strait between itself and Aland which is 30km at its narrowest (South Kvarken). Sakhalin should also connect to mainland Manchuria across the Strait of Tartary which is only 7.3 km wide if there isn't a strait there already.

    A situation not mentioned that DID have Russia and Japan colonizing areas at the same time was the Kuril Islands. Right now the island chain is 1 province but it could easily be 2. As early as 1711, Russian fur trappers were making camps on the island and by 1747 the Russian Orthodox Church had begun opening churches on the island of Paramushir
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paramushir

    At the same time Japan was settling the island of Iturup and Kunashir with a military garrison on the island by 1800. Both islands also began to see Russian trappers and settlers as well
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iturup
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yuzhno-Kurilsk

    obviously as Japan was settling north and Russia settling south, obviously a clash was inevitable and it occurred in 1811 when captain Vasily Golovnin's and his crew of surveyors were captured on the island of Kunashir by the Japanese. So what we have here obviously is a simultaneous colonization of the Kuril island chain by both countries within the MEIOU timeframe

  16. #16
    F-CEO of EUIV:MEIOU and Taxes gigau's Avatar
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    You ask for a finger.... i consider it so you ask for the hand ?

    The Kurils i'm about sure i'll keep it as is. If necessary, i'll place the Paramushir island in the province of the tip of the Kamtchatka peninsula (much like i game the Anglo-Normand Islands to Wessex).
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  17. #17
    Sayonara Zetsubou Robusuta
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    Quote Originally Posted by gigau View Post
    You ask for a finger.... i consider it so you ask for the hand ?

    The Kurils i'm about sure i'll keep it as is. If necessary, i'll place the Paramushir island in the province of the tip of the Kamtchatka peninsula (much like i game the Anglo-Normand Islands to Wessex).
    Fair enough its your mod afterall But Sakhalin is incredibly close to Japan and mainland Outer Manchuria so its something to consider. The Kurils I just threw out there as an example but if you are going to include them then you will have the island up to Urup be part of the Kamchatka province because thats how far the Russian-American Company got by 1820 and resettled by Russians, Aleuts and Kamchadals. In 1808 there WAS a colonization attempt on by the Russian-American Company on northern Sakhalin but the expedition failed and the Russians failed, they would try again with more success 30 years later, but it was an attempt though.

    SSSSSSSSSSpeakin' of islands, just a quick, completely unrelated heads up! Orkney province, to reflect its Nordic culture group and time period should be renamed Orkneyjar and its capital of Kirkwall should be Kirkjuvagr

  18. #18
    F-CEO of EUIV:MEIOU and Taxes gigau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Semi-Lobster View Post
    SSSSSSSSSSpeakin' of islands, just a quick, completely unrelated heads up! Orkney province, to reflect its Nordic culture group and time period should be renamed Orkneyjar and its capital of Kirkwall should be Kirkjuvagr
    Changed the capital name, thanks.

    For province name, not sure yet what to yet, as it would imply a new event to change the name later on.
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  19. #19
    Lt. General NorwayBernd's Avatar
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    That new event seems simple enough. The trigger should simply be Scotland, England or Great Britain owning it, and the effect renames the province.
    And vice versa if Norway, Denmark, Denmark-Norway or the Kalmar Union retake it.
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  20. #20
    Sayonara Zetsubou Robusuta
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    Quote Originally Posted by gigau View Post


    Changed the capital name, thanks.

    For province name, not sure yet what to yet, as it would imply a new event to change the name later on.
    Does it really need an event to change it? Theres a good chance that Scotland never takes it and it stays Norwegian forever... or... as happens in my games often enough, France takes it as part of becoming the biggest Blue blob Europe has ever seen until it hits the Hungarian blob

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