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1alexey said:
I`m sorry to interapt the proud nationalistick chest pounding
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I dont know with whom you are arguing now, or whom are you interapting, perhaps your invisible friend..?
there was just one guy saying something about holding off the Germans, quite a few days ago, and his info says he is from North Carolina and features a Kazakhstan flag (maybe its Borat in the US!), so if he is a Czech nationalist, he operates well under cover..
 
Everything i have always read stated the German High Command was terrified of going into Czechoslovakia. A quality army well fortified in a mountain nation. They anticipated heavy terrible losses. No one assumes they would not have one, but it clearly wouldnt have been like Poland if it happened. At least that is the common theories of the time.

And most minors cant field any representative army, at least not without goint straight militia and even then often you cant even get a decent army going. Occasionally things may pan out, but often you end up recyclying the same units and have no units to defend any conquered lands.

The game clearly is not designed for you to play minors i simply wonder why the option is there.
 
LodovicoAriosto said:
More powerful CZE is historical CZE. In 38 one million soldiers were mobilized and put into forts in the blink of an eye. CZE and GER were the only two countries which were relatively well prepared for war in 38, everyone else thought its not gonna happen in 38-40
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21oliver said:
Everything i have always read stated the German High Command was terrified of going into Czechoslovakia. A quality army well fortified in a mountain nation. They anticipated heavy terrible losses. No one assumes they would not have one, but it clearly wouldnt have been like Poland if it happened. At least that is the common theories of the time.
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oss spy said:
Germany's plan to invade Czech lands would've been a disaster. The operation, called Fall Grun, would've decimated the German army. One of the military commanders actually resigned over the invasion plan. Germany would've been bogged down in the mountain fortresses of the Sudetenland, and the French and English forces would've quickly responded- and won.
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pivokrevnik said:
Czech Germans formed a huge potential fifth column, there were strong separatist tendencies in Slovakia, also a strong Hungarian minority. Czechoslovak soldiers would fight in a hostile territory, sabotages and desertions would be frequent. Both Hungary and Poland contested land with CSR, there was some unfinished business since 1919.
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pivokrevnik said:
I dont know with whom you are arguing now, or whom are you interapting, perhaps your invisible friend..?
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:p
 
21oliver said:
The game clearly is not designed for you to play minors i simply wonder why the option is there.
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This is where you are wrong. You can conquer the world with minors ;) Check my sig for relevant AARs. The game is not designed for AI to play minors though.

In fact I am more concerned by the fact that you can conquer the USA with Mexico wiht no cheats than that you lose against Germany with Czechoslovakia.
 
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1 million man army doesn't mean much. Just ask all those Romanian and Hungarians facing the Russians. Basically, they dropped their rifels and ran. And since it never happened we don't know if the historical CZE army could face up to the Germans. there is no proof since it never happened. What we do know is Germany easily beat Poland, France, the Low Coutnries and did well till late '41. They they got their butts kicked.

BTW saying that high command was terrified doesn't mean anything. It might be true but during the 1st Gulf War there were predictions of 10-30K casualties for the US side. Turned out to be around 500. War is an unknown.

The reason all these things are they way they are is because of game balancing in AI vs AI mode. You either make German uber strong to defeat a strong CZE but then it always wins against SU. This is a game and not a historical simulator, so balance issues ahd to be resolved.
 
1alexey said:
:p
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and which post exactly says something about "holding off the Germans", except for the one by osspy which I mentioned? who is, apparently, a Czech nationalist.

those just saying that Germans would have suffered losses?

mine mentioning the german fifth column and hostile neighbours (basically the same what YOU are saying)? :blink:

are you drunk? the number of typos in your post suggests so. if you want to troll, go for something more sophisticated than such retarded straw men.
 
mnplastic said:
This is where you are wrong. You can conquer the world with minors ;) Check my sig for relevant AARs.
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Sorry, I am too lazy to check the AARs, but I strongly suspect, by selecting your capital as an allied objective and using the majors troops? yeah...thats great fun.

anyway.. I dont need to conquer the world with minors, I dont need them to be playable,

(btw I never played or wanted to play CSR and I certainly dont feel any revisionist sentiment :) I am happy with my Italy.. and if I ever consider playing minors, it would be Finland first :)

I dont need strong minors or interesting minors, I dont even want spot-on realistic minors, or minors close to reality, I just want minors which are not so blatantly out of anything resembling reality, as if the game world was designed by a monkey. simple as that.
If a minor country had 1000 planes in 1939, I dont care if ingame it has 10 wings, 8 wings or 5 wings, but it has zero!
if the country is in RL lined by heavily forested hill/mountain ranges, and ingame there is nothing but plains!

I will happily settle for some tradeoffs for game balances sake, but come on, the current state is so off, almost opposite reality, in so many cases it looks almost like somebody did it on purpose for the giggles :unsure:
 
pivokrevnik said:
if the country is in RL lined by heavily forested hill/mountain ranges, and ingame there is nothing but plains!
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Update to FTM latest version and get all the map fixes you want.

All countries have very reduced air forces. Maybe because the planes they had were all WW1 rejects and barely fit for training purposes.
 
jju_57 said:
Update to FTM latest version and get all the map fixes you want.

All countries have very reduced air forces. Maybe because the planes they had were all WW1 rejects and barely fit for training purposes.
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I know about some fixes, yeah, so I admit this comment was a bit unfair - still its a bit weird such things can make it into the release version at all..

as for WW1 rejects....umm...no. not really.
 
Some facts about the CZE airforce:

"There were 1,514 aircraft in the Czechoslovakian air force in September 1938.1 Of those 566 were available for combat." This according to World War II Airplanes Volume 1, Enzo Angelucci, Paolo Matricardi, 1976.

Their front line fighters consisted of 250 B.534 and 20 BK.534 planes. These were BI-PLANES! The rest of the fighters are even older versions. The Germans were producing the Bf-109B at this time. A dozen B.534's were given to Bulgaria to help against allied bombers. B-24's decimated them. So yea really.
 
jju_57 said:
Some facts about the CZE airforce:

"There were 1,514 aircraft in the Czechoslovakian air force in September 1938.1 Of those 566 were available for combat." This according to World War II Airplanes Volume 1, Enzo Angelucci, Paolo Matricardi, 1976.

Their front line fighters consisted of 250 B.534 and 20 BK.534 planes. These were BI-PLANES!
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oh my gosh, BI-PLANES! o rly? man, thats like fighting with sticks and stones!

in 1938, when RAF was mostly equipped with Gloster Gladiator, Italy with Fiat Cr.32, etc. :p
 
This game is not designed for you to play as minors, and i dont need to read AARs because yes i have repeatedly done very well as minors, but its always "Gamey" and its not remotely historical at all, so really it doesnt matter. I usually get so bored i dont even finish. I conquered nearly all of Europe, Africa, the Middle East and parts of Asia as National Spain once, and basically did it with my initial troops and only built some more to defend conquered lands, it was ridiculous.
 
pivokrevnik said:
oh my gosh, BI-PLANES! o rly? man, thats like fighting with sticks and stones!

in 1938, when RAF was mostly equipped with Gloster Gladiator, Italy with Fiat Cr.32, etc. :p
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You missed the point of course. You complained that the planes were represented. I said it's like that for all countries with WW1 rejects. You said they didn't have any. I showed you that is all they had, hence NO air force.

And for anyone that really wants to read about how CZE might have fared against the Germans here is a great link with the facts (especially concerning the fortifications).
http://www.warhorsesim.com/papers/MunichCrisis.htm
 
Consider the following....

The Luftwaffe forces consisted of 1,180 fighters, 290 Ju 87 Stuka dive bombers, 1,100 conventional bombers (mainly Heinkel He 111s and Dornier Do 17s), and an assortment of 550 transport and 350 reconnaissance aircraft.[34][35] In total, Germany had close to 4,000 aircraft, most of them modern. A force of 2,315 aircraft was assigned to Weiss.
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Overall, the Germans enjoyed numerical and qualitative aircraft superiority. Poland had only about 600 aircraft, of which only 37 P-37 Łoś bombers were modern and comparable to its German counterparts. The Polish Air Force had roughly 185 PZL P.11 and some 95 PZL P.7 fighters, 175 PZL.23 Karaś Bs, 35 Karaś As, and by September, over 100 PZL.37s were produced.[Note 5] However, for the September Campaign, only some 70% of those aircraft were mobilized.
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The Polish Air Force, significantly outnumbered and with its fighters outmatched by more advanced German fighters, remained active up to the second week of the campaign, inflicting significant damage on the Luftwaffe.[83] The Luftwaffe lost, to all operational causes, 285 aircraft, with 279 more damaged beyond repair, while the Poles lost 333 aircraft.[84]
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War is War. No matter how much quantity or quality you have, you will take losses. Are we to assume that the Germans would have steamrolled the Czechs? No one else ever thought so, and i agree. They would have won, but it would have taken time, and there would have been a price.

Just look at the very end of the War, the Sheer numbers and quality of equipment (rockets upon rockets) the Soviets threw at Berlin, only defended by boys and old men with no equipment. And you know what? it took weeks and weeks for the Soviets to progress. War is never as simple as it seems on paper.

If the Czechs decided to fight the whole war may have been different. What if the Poles invaded Germany from the East and then France from the West?
 
jju_57 said:
You missed the point of course. You complained that the planes were represented. I said it's like that for all countries with WW1 rejects. You said they didn't have any. I showed you that is all they had, hence NO air force.
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what are you babbling about? what WW1 rejects?? :blink: B.534 was a thirties design, not shining, but comparable with contemporary majors designs, Gladiators, Fiats Cr.32, Polikarpovs I-15, I-153. btw B.534 was faster than PZL-11, or american Peashooters, both monoplane...even Germany as most advanced air force still had quite a few biplanes in 38..

you are pasting "facts" (obviously hastily googled links because you want to participate in an argument) without any comparison, context... B-24 shot down B.534 in 1943 or 44, therefore, in 1938, it was a world war 1 design.....what? :blink:

I have always wondered, reading this forum for quite a long time, here are people with thousands of posts, arguing about stuff, while not having even a wiki-trivia level of knowledge, I mean, in any modeller or serious wargame forum, you will be eaten alive :blink:
 
21oliver said:
War is War. No matter how much quantity or quality you have, you will take losses. Are we to assume that the Germans would have steamrolled the Czechs? No one else ever thought so, and i agree. They would have won, but it would have taken time, and there would have been a price.
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A quote from the above link:

"No one, not even the Czech General Staff, believed that Czechoslovakia could hold out alone against the full military weight that Germany could eventually mobilize". I'm not saying that Germany wouldn't suffer losses. No one is. What I'm saying is that the war would take less than a month at most and mybe just 2 weeks. Here is another quote from the British Chiefs of Staff September 1938. "They estimated that the Germans could achieve "the occupation of the whole of Western Czechoslovakia, including Bohemia, Moravia and Silesia" easily "without any appreciable delay," and could "proceed . . . at will" to "the elimination of Czechoslovakia from the war by the defeat of the Czechoslovak Army."

In fact the whole situation around Munich relied on France. Could they hold out till France joined the war? Would France even attack or just rely on defense?

So your claim that no one thought the Germans could easily defeat the Czechs is flat out wrong. The British Chiefs of Staff on September 14, 1938 presented the above quote in a report to the Cabinet. Truth is no one was sure what would happen. but everyone was sure that without France launching an immediate attack into Germany they Czech army was doomed. When France indicated that they couldn't or wouldn't do it, the results were clear and the Munich accords reached.
 
pivokrevnik said:
Sorry, I am too lazy to check the AARs, but I strongly suspect, by selecting your capital as an allied objective and using the majors troops? yeah...thats great fun.
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Not really. As I remember with Poland AAR there was no option for allied objectives, Luxembourg AAR is not allied to anybody, Lithuania came to Moscow without Expeditionary forces. Mexico can defeat the USA without joining any alliance and conquer the world without a single EF.

pivokrevnik said:
If a minor country had 1000 planes in 1939, I dont care if ingame it has 10 wings, 8 wings or 5 wings, but it has zero!
if the country is in RL lined by heavily forested hill/mountain ranges, and ingame there is nothing but plains!
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Is it theory or you have an example?
 
pivokrevnik said:
what are you babbling about? what WW1 rejects?? :blink: B.534 was a thirties design, not shining, but comparable with contemporary majors designs, Gladiators, Fiats Cr.32, Polikarpovs I-15, I-153. btw B.534 was faster than PZL-11, or american Peashooters, both monoplane...even Germany as most advanced air force still had quite a few biplanes in 38..

you are pasting "facts" (obviously hastily googled links because you want to participate in an argument) without any comparison, context... B-24 shot down B.534 in 1943 or 44, therefore, in 1938, it was a world war 1 design.....what? :blink:

I have always wondered, reading this forum for quite a long time, here are people with thousands of posts, arguing about stuff, while not having even a wiki-trivia level of knowledge, I mean, in any modeller or serious wargame forum, you will be eaten alive :blink:
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I really hate having to walk people step by baby step through a logical argument but here goes.

1) You are upset that the game didn't include planes for some countries.
2) I pointed out that older model planes were left out of ALL countries, including minors, Germany, UK etc etc etc.
3) I showed that the Czeck airforce was not this 1000+ plane monster but a much smaller air force that had older technology. (yes 1930 designed bi-planes but 2010 designed bi-planes will still be bi-planes and still suck).
4) To show you how inadequate these planes actually were (and remember they are fighters) a group of bombers decimated them. Conclusion is even "modern" bi-planes are no match for real modern designs and the Bf-109B was many times better.

Finally, what-if? what-if the aliens landed and got involved. My what-if is just as silly since history tells us Poland would not get involved. They refused SU from sending troops to honer their pact with the Czechs. As posted it all relied on France.

But this is besides the point. You complained about no airforce and I gave you the answer. Like it or not that's the way it is.
 
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21oliver said:
This game is not designed for you to play as minors, and i dont need to read AARs because yes i have repeatedly done very well as minors, but its always "Gamey" and its not remotely historical at all, so really it doesnt matter. I usually get so bored i dont even finish. I conquered nearly all of Europe, Africa, the Middle East and parts of Asia as National Spain once, and basically did it with my initial troops and only built some more to defend conquered lands, it was ridiculous.
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Hold on then. So where is your complaint? Czechoslovakia can not take on Germany? Is it remotely historical? Or 1.000.000 Romanian army (100 divisions, I assume). Is it remotely historical?

You can play minors in not "Gamey" way. It is up to you and it will be historical enough. So yes it is designed to play minors as well.
 
Soviet Union stated its readiness to join CZE. At the cost of Romania and Poland of course. UK and France insisted that CZE accepts Munich dictate.

So the whole Germany would probably have been Soviet.

British and French ruling class feared Soviet Union more than Germany in 38. Better GER swallow CZE rathen than SU swallow Poland and Romania - that was the answer of the British conservative circles. Churchill warned them.
 
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