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  1. #21
    Even with the 'nerfed minors' they can still go on to greatness;




    However I generally do consider many of the Minors to be totally underpowered, either in manpower, crippled by techs that they should have/leadership avalible or industry that they should have. There are a good deal of mods that take steps to rectify these issues, which has led to me playing a lot more modded games than vanilla games over the last year, and even helpped spured me to do research on a few nations to try and get the background right. Sweden, Denmark, Poland, Mexico, Peru, Thailand and India namely.

    The really sad thing is, that via the Lua files you can nerf the AI ministers to never expand if you don't want them to by having them stay on industrilisation paths etc. for the vast majority of the game, which means there is no need to 'nerf the minors' to get the game to play out history right 9 times our of 10.

    Really it smacks a bit of laziness that nobody went round and did this, instead they just activated; "Global Nerf, Nazi Wank."

  2. #22
    General LodovicoAriosto's Avatar

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    More powerful CZE is historical CZE. In 38 one million soldiers were mobilized and put into forts in the blink of an eye. CZE and GER were the only two countries which were relatively well prepared for war in 38, everyone else thought its not gonna happen in 38-40
    Last edited by LodovicoAriosto; 16-06-2012 at 14:45.
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  3. #23
    Second Lieutenant oss spy's Avatar
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    Germany's plan to invade Czech lands would've been a disaster. The operation, called Fall Grun, would've decimated the German army. One of the military commanders actually resigned over the invasion plan. Germany would've been bogged down in the mountain fortresses of the Sudetenland, and the French and English forces would've quickly responded- and won.

    However, "peace in our time" is more important than ensuring peace forever.
    "I am not a man of blood; and God is my witness that, in all of my wars, I have never been the aggressor and that my enemies have been the author of their own calamity." -Timur

  4. #24
    Lets not overestimate Czechs and underestimate Germans, oss spy.

  5. #25
    Major Maestor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oss spy View Post
    Germany's plan to invade Czech lands would've been a disaster. The operation, called Fall Grun, would've decimated the German army. One of the military commanders actually resigned over the invasion plan. Germany would've been bogged down in the mountain fortresses of the Sudetenland, and the French and English forces would've quickly responded- and won.

    However, "peace in our time" is more important than ensuring peace forever.
    Yep, and that's exactly how things went when Germany invaded Poland...

  6. #26
    General PanzerMan7's Avatar
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    would the british and french intervene, however, or were they bluffing (tho i must say it would be an odd bluff) to the czechs

    either way, it would likely be rather difficult for the germans (quite a bit of german equipment was captured from the czechs too).

    im not sure how large their air force was but they also certainly had a nice compliment of tanks, superior to the pz 1 and 2
    I wanna be Korean or Japanese.



    "If it's an exploit for para's then it's an exploit for EVERY unit in the game and therefore the game itself is an exploit." -jju_57

  7. #27
    Do you think that they will fix the minor nations in the new expansion pack?
    "Heaven is where the police are British, the chefs Italian, the mechanics German, the lovers French and it is all organised by the Swiss.
    Hell is where the police are German, the chefs British, the mechanics French, the lovers Swiss and it is all organised by the Italians"

  8. #28
    General LodovicoAriosto's Avatar

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    at least it is gonna be possible to boost your allies which would help multiplayer - instead of coop in a single country players in major powers could help those playing minors. Not as good as mutual military control known from HoI2 but still an improvement. Unfortunately, it seems that only IC will be increased via this option, not manpower or LP.

    Too bad that share theory option is hardly beneficial and its use is limited. It should be made stronger too.

    Along these improvements (military control, IC boost, better theory sharing) I would also invite some rebalancing in basic IC, MP and LP which would further make the discrepancies between majors and regional powers less steep and more historical. Of course all these measures should not be taken overboard because I think nobody wants to see Romania half as strong as Germany for example.

    TFH is coming during Q3 so let's see!


    panzerman7 wrote: would the british and french intervene, however, or were they bluffing (tho i must say it would be an odd bluff) to the czechs either way, it would likely be rather difficult for the germans (quite a bit of german equipment was captured from the czechs too). im not sure how large their air force was but they also certainly had a nice compliment of tanks, superior to the pz 1 and 2

    British did not want to risk losses (total losses "only" 450k in the whole war, SU 25million, CZE 350k) and French command was paralyzed. Germans were bluffing - succesfully.

    Czechoslovak army was excellent but aviation was a weakness. The planes were at the level of FRA or SU and could not compete with Luftwaffe. Prague would have ended up like Rotterdam in case of war, that is for sure.
    Last edited by LodovicoAriosto; 17-06-2012 at 02:21.
    "None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free." - Goethe

  9. #29
    the prepare for war decision in 3.05 really opened up the potential for player controlled minors, but it would be great for them to see some more attention now that most of the theatres are functional now

  10. #30
    Field Marshal 21oliver's Avatar
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    Im glad to see the attention, for well over a year i argued these very pts and was basically told by most here that minors really arent to be played, they didnt matter much..... for which i would respond if they were going to be nerfed so bad why bother make them a playable nation? simply allow players to choose from 3-4 nations per side and be done with it.

  11. #31
    General PanzerMan7's Avatar
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    minors are a great learning tool
    I wanna be Korean or Japanese.



    "If it's an exploit for para's then it's an exploit for EVERY unit in the game and therefore the game itself is an exploit." -jju_57

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by 21oliver View Post
    Im glad to see the attention, for well over a year i argued these very pts and was basically told by most here that minors really arent to be played, they didnt matter much..... for which i would respond if they were going to be nerfed so bad why bother make them a playable nation? simply allow players to choose from 3-4 nations per side and be done with it.

    yep I saw this argument too, I still wonder how could somebody express something that idiotic - obviously the strength of minors matters even if you dont want to play them directly - either as your allies or victims.. it is so boring when I play Italy and Bulgaria, Yugoslavia, Greece and Romania all crumble like Ethiopia while I field a fraction of my force!

    as for pre-war Czechoslovakia - this is always a recipe for a heated endless debate with any Czech military-buff, btw
    I think that the real limit, speaking in game terms, was not IC or leadership. CSR was a heavily industrialized country since Austro-Hungarian times, regions like Pilsen or Ostrava could be called a central European Detroit.
    Ingame level of IC 13 is a total nonsense - base IC perhaps about 60 would be realistic.

    Leadership - level of research was also very good - as for airplanes, there were local types developed as soon as in 1922, and aircraft developed around 1938 -Avia B.135 was more than a match for early Bf 109 versions (prototyped in 1938, too late to play any role though).
    Light support weapons were superb by highest international standards (Bren machine gun).
    Quality of light tanks is well known. In game terms, these areas would be researched well in advance, say to 1940 level at least.


    The real crippling problem, again speaking in game terms, was dissent and national unity. We like to paint the so called "First republic" as an ideal state, perhaps compared to post-war communist regime it was, but it was by no mean a united state.

    Czech Germans formed a huge potential fifth column, there were strong separatist tendencies in Slovakia, also a strong Hungarian minority. Czechoslovak soldiers would fight in a hostile territory, sabotages and desertions would be frequent. Both Hungary and Poland contested land with CSR, there was some unfinished business since 1919. It is also possible, that Germans wouldnt have to do much work, there will be a Czech-Sudetendeutsche-Slovak-Slovak Hungarian civil war, then Poland and Hungary will dive in like vultures, and Germany will only march in to finish the job )

    also doctrines were - at least thats what I have read (I know wery little about land combat) - wery backward. Army had superb equipment, but planned to use it in a 1918 way. Or to put it simply - there was a strong French influence

    Also, the famous fortress system was far from finished. This is the only aspect in which the game unrealism shifts in the opposite direction. In January 1936, there are level 5 forts everywhere around border, in reality they barely started to build them by that time!

  13. #33
    Field Marshal 21oliver's Avatar
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    To me if you continuosly play USA vs Japan or Germany vs the Soviets or vice versa either (as you have in every war game you have ever played), how long before the game stagnates? The interesting part of the game is the Minors. The minors whether you lay them or not is what gives you a variety of interesting what if / semi historical games. Whether a minor joins the war, which side they join, what impact they have...etc... If they would open up the Diplomatic options for the Minors (see A), give them an actual fair military representation (see B), allow for the historical and National rivalries to exist (see C) youd have a much wider variety of avenues the game would take. Diversity would make the game more enjoyable over and over.

    A) example.... As Mussolini finally decided on a whim after teetering back and forth to join the Axis (even though he knew he wasnt ready and didnt want to go to war until 42-43!) Franco jumps in with both feet convinced by Hitler that the Axis would steam roll the Allies. He didnt care about his Nations situation militarily or how exposed they were, Hitler promised aid and he was convinced they would win and negotiated an agreement as to what territory he would get. If this happens before France is invaded or even after they fall, think of the possibilities this opens. No hard coded (this must happen before they join etc....)

    B) after much negotiation Hitler convinces the Turks to join the Axis, he knows they are ill equipped and agrees to send several panzer divisions and bomber wings to assist. That large army coming up the underbelly of the Soviets is just what he needs!

    C) Romania having joined the Axis, seemingly cant wait their rivalry with Bulgaria breaks into open conflict, the Soviets with their infinity for the Bulgars comes to their rescue. Romania is overrun, nearly a year before he had planned to invade the oviet Union he has now lost his main oil supply and has the Soviets knocking on his doorstep!

  14. #34
    Second Lieutenant Redhead's Avatar
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    The nerf of minors took like 40% of my pleasure from the game. I'm one of the gamers who play minors, Poland from obvious reasons, Czechoslovakia, Spain. Also France and NatChi. It doesn't make sense anymore. I think I'll wait for the newest expansion to see if this approach is changed. If not, well maybe NatChi, but how long can you play with one nation... This obsession with historical outcomes is strange to me. I thought HOI3 was supposed to be a strategic game set up in WW2 time, not a historical simulation. Now it's like back to Victoria with its rigid event system (I mean it as analogy, the rigidity here is achieved through nerfing, not events). And it is quite a paradox (sorry couldn't resist) that people try to get historical results by totally ahistorical nerfing.

  15. #35
    Lt. General tommylotto's Avatar
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    My 2

    The '36 OOB's should be made as accurate as possible. The Czechs should have their historically strong industry and large military. They should have their air wings and divisions with realistic tech levels. Then other game mechanics -- doctrine, dissent, officer ratio, national unity, whatever -- should be used to nerf them to get a hands off historic result. Then a human Czech player when he starts the game will take charge of a nation that resembles the historic Czech nation -- apparently strong but with serious flaws. Then the human player can change history by correcting the problems -- more CG to lower dissent, spies to increase unity, etc., maybe give up on tank research and work on infantry doctrines. Then the human player with 20-20 hindsight can fix the problems and improve the Czech outcome (maybe).
    Check out The Fox And The Lion - An Hoi3 TFH Mod. A full featured mod with many new unit types playable as any nation but with extra emphasis on Italy.

  16. #36
    Field Marshal Kovax's Avatar
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    Absolutely. The game can't create a historical or even credible outcome when the input conditions (both political and economic) are so glaringly wrong. It takes scripted events and major nerfs to put it on track, which then work contrary to common sense when the situation changes.

    The basic game mechanics are now mostly "sound"; it now needs balancing.

  17. #37
    Field Marshal 21oliver's Avatar
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    Tommy you have hit on the head many of my arguments.

    The game makes the mistake of equating manpower as military power. So they want Germany to be stronger then say Poland, they make sure they give them tons more manpower and nerf Poland to make sure Germany wins. The game makes the assumption that all units are equal everywhere until modified by techs and that simply is not the case. I made a point in another thread where Colonor Trevor Dupuy who wrote many books, had the Germans about 3-4 to 1 better militarily then the Soviets. Meaning a german basic infantry unit should be able to fight 3-4 soviet infantry units to a standstill. The game doesnt do that way, they should. Nations should have all their units modified for quality in addition to the techs. Instead they arbitrarily assign extra manpower or nerf nations to try and get a feasible outcome. The czechs cant even mobilize its ridiculous.

    If this is the only way they could make the game playable why bother making minors playable? Just have a handful of majors as playable nations and be done with it. Whenever i designed a game i always believed first and foremost was to have the data accurate. Paradox reverses it, they say we have made a playable game engine now lets distribute manpower how well get the outcome we want. Germany after the Anschluss picked up i believe 50k soldiers, in game their given how much? 500 manpower? essentially 900k?

    The minors are the potential in this game to take it to a greater level. Stop nerfing the minors, stop with the hardcoded Political decisions, open up more variable opportunities and the game would be much better imo...

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by 21oliver View Post
    The game makes the mistake of equating manpower as military power. So they want Germany to be stronger then say Poland, they make sure they give them tons more manpower and nerf Poland to make sure Germany wins. The game makes the assumption that all units are equal everywhere until modified by techs and that simply is not the case. I made a point in another thread where Colonor Trevor Dupuy who wrote many books, had the Germans about 3-4 to 1 better militarily then the Soviets. Meaning a german basic infantry unit should be able to fight 3-4 soviet infantry units to a standstill. The game doesnt do that way, they should. Nations should have all their units modified for quality in addition to the techs. Instead they arbitrarily assign extra manpower or nerf nations to try and get a feasible outcome. The czechs cant even mobilize its ridiculous.
    Yes, you are correct. However these changes will never happen.

    Paradox will never do this, it would require accepting and embracing social, political and religious issues of the day.

  19. #39
    I love playing minors, but as we mostly agree they are incredibly underpowered.

    My solution was to make a custom event which fired at the start of the game for every minor where you could either say 'Yes' or 'No'. While the AI was set to always say 'No', I of course had the option to accept the event. If I did...
    global_ic = 0.25
    global_leadership_modifier = 1.50
    global_manpower_modifier = 4.0
    }

    This would give a given nation a small boost to Industrial Capacity (because in vanilla HoI3 minor countries pretty much can't even contemplate building airplanes)...It also gave a pretty substantial leadership modifier, so that the average minor goes from 4-5 leadership to 13-ish, which is enough to at least keep most of your basic techs up to date, and even be cutting edge in a couple of fields you focus on, if you're willing to write a navy off...And obviously having x4 manpower is enough to start fielding somewhat significant forces.

    I played this this special event as Romania, and was able to build enough land forts, AA, and conventional forces to hold a line at the river in Northern Romania against the Soviets when they demanded Moldavia and I refused. And I successfully held off the Red Army until the Germans launched Barbarossa, which felt like quite the accomplishment!

  20. #40
    I`m sorry to interapt the proud nationalistick chest pounding, but the idea that Czech would hold off Germany is laughable.
    -Germany+Austria had a huge border length with Czech. They could easilly pick the target and cut the country in half.
    -Czech would be in full blockade, since Poles and Hungarians were pro-german.
    -Germans wouldn`g get boged down it border defence. The Dutch, Belgian, and French forts didn`t slowed them down all that much, and that was on the way more narrow front.
    -Germans would have total air supreriority and Czech would have really hard time to get their stuff from factories to frontlines.
    -The allies would have really long time to actually respond in 1938, compared to 1939.
    -the 1 milion of mobilised may look impressive, but France did mobilize 5 milions, and had about half-year to train them. And it didn`t hepled them all too much.

    Quote Originally Posted by Maestor View Post
    Yep, and that's exactly how things went when Germany invaded Poland...
    +1.

    Now, to the manpower point, HOI3 manpower is way too low for all nations.

    HOI3 leadership allows minors to get fairly decent army. Thier armour and airforce are heavilly gimped by the way how practicals work.

    Kinda all.

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