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new suggestion: Trained manpower being converted from Untrained manpower

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Trained manpower converted from manpower like fuel from oil

Jazumir made a suggestion in the new expansion thread:
Talking about elite units: It has been said, that each major gets one type. How about adding paras to the list? So you can have x% of your troops be paras or elite?

EDIT: Actually, it would be way cooler to just have a ´quality manpower pool´, source of it being manpower converted (oil-to-fuel style) based on officer ratio and all quality units have a ´QMP´-requirement, instead of basing the number of allowed (boolean) elite units on the number of existing troops.
Click to expand...


An excellent idea capable of representing the massed amounts of volkssturm or soviet 1941 "infantry" divisions constructed, while at the same time representing the German and Soviet lack of (trained) manpower.

"Untrained manpower" would be the total manpower in your country, including those working in industry (so if you want more raw recruits you need to close factories), while "Trained manpower" would be those you build high quality divisions from. The ratio of conversion could depend on training laws, techs, IC, officer count and so on. Only divisions possible to make from untrained manpower would be militia, garrison and infantry, and those would always have zero experience. Divisions made from trained manpower would have an experience depending on the average quality of the trained manpower (ie depends on what training laws have been used and in which periods), but always have at least 10 exp.

This, in addition with making reinforcements for land and air units much more expensive (It should cost maybe 70% as much IC to reinforce an infantry division from 0 to 100 strength), making upgrades somewhat more expensive and making national unity have more of an effect (higher manpower growth and combat bonuses?) would make the game much better IMO.

EDIT: Oh and the more expensive reinforcements would solve the too cheap reserves problem as well.
 
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Sounds interesting.
 
Sounds interesting, but how would you control which MP type is used? For example, I build 3xINF+1xART - is trained MP or untrained MP used? Should there be an ability to choose which MP type you want to use?

Some unit types, like MTNs, PARAs, MARs etc., should only use the trained MP pool, which would put a natural and sensible limit on the number of specialist divs you can field.

However, the problem is that this still wouldn't solve the problem with air units, because in order to get realistic results pilots should have their own MP pool.
 
Well, if i may:

I´d make it a tad simpler than the OP suggests and scrap the experience-aspect. The only point in ´quality manpower´ (QMP) is to put an additional requirement on the production and repair of certain unit types. QMP may replace MP, when MP is zero (but wont before, as that would be a pointless waste), but not vice versa.

So say you build a 3xInf+1xArt division. I´d attach a very slight QMP requirement to the ART-brigade, probably, which you´d have to pay when you build and repair this division. If you lack the amount of QMP required, neither will occur. Simple as that.

I´d also only bind QMP-grwoth to either MP-gain or MP-pool * officer ratio / some constant number. If MP-gain is taken as a base, that gain will be split among MP and QMP ; if MP-pool is the base, MP should be converted to QMP in a similar fashion as oil does to fuel. I´d like to hear opinions as to which would be more desirable in your view, btw.

I´d probably have planes have a 50% QMP requirement, shoting in the blue here. Yeah, those QMPs could just as well be used to build one or two ´special units´ (announced feature of TFH), despite pilot training being associated with extra cost IRL (fuel mostly). But the abstraction line has to be drawn somewhere, right? Plus, who says, that planes should not also feature a (-n extra) fuel-cost for building and repairing them?

EDIT: I would have hardly any unit-type require QMP exclusively.
 
I´d probably have planes have a 50% QMP requirement, shoting in the blue here. Yeah, those QMPs could just as well be used to build one or two ´special units´ (announced feature of TFH), despite pilot training being associated with extra cost IRL (fuel mostly). But the abstraction line has to be drawn somewhere, right?
Click to expand...
Actually, when you think about it, the fuel part could easily be represented by a strategic effect which would decrease experience and increase unit build-time of air units IF the devs add the ability to decrease experience of air/naval/land units separately.

Can we check how much fuel/crude oil you have? YES
Can we check training laws? YES
Can we increase build-time of air units without affecting land/naval units? YES
Can we decrease unit experience of air units without affecting land/naval units? NO
 
Great idea!
I like the intention and have some additional ideas for implementation.
Please read on if you're interested.


What is missing, or not working right atm:
Units should loose different experience when in need of replacement. And should need different types of men. We have already "normal men" and officers.
IIRC in the Dev Diaries of DI:G it was noted that you would be able to see diffenet pics if the unit gets more experienced and look like a rookie again if they need to much replacements.
Danevang said:
The brigades:

A major change to the game is the way brigade images are graphically represented. The idea is that one could represent the brigades with more than just a small black and white photo. Wouldn’t it be cool to see a soldier from the brigade? Perhaps have some info text about the brigade, explaining pros and cons? Well, this concept kept evolving, until we managed to implement a soldier portrait which changes clothes with technological advances, changes looks as experience is gained (filthy clothes, worn face) as well as medals awarded with increasing xp. I.e. a panzer brigade will eventually be awarded with wounded badge (black), then panzer assault badge, then wounded badge silver and so on up to knights cross with oak leaves. An infantry brigade will get the infantry assault badge instead of panzer assault badge, and likewise with other brigades. This system varies between land/naval/air to best represent the looks of these various arms.

The brigade representation allows you to follow your troops as time and war progresses, and to immerse you more into the development (or downfall) of your armies, i.e. seeing your 5th infantry brigade start out as young with spotless clothes, seeing them earn the iron cross 2nd class for the battle of Warsaw, getting more and more worn and dirty, ending up with the knights cross for battles during Barbarossa. Then see the once proud brigade again losing its’ decorated veterans as you are pushed back from Russia, ending up with green conscripts again. Ah the circle of life.
..
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But I didn't noticed that effect so far. Can anyone confirm that?
(IIRC Devildrad or Danevang noted that it isn't working, but I can't find the post atm..)

In the end, I think, we would all like to be represented the higher need of training or NCO's and Officers in a unit.

To have it as simple integrated into the game as possible.
To get it "right" the LS must be changed that it not only creates officers but also nco. A new value.
Now we would have:
MP: Normal trained personnel
NCO: Better/special trained personnel
Officers: Very well/special trained personnel

These 3 would add with modifiers different amount of morale and Org to a unit.
If MP/NCO/Off dies in battle, then these values decrease also in the unit by that modifier.
Additionaly a modifier that affects the Defensive and Offensive Abilities would be good too.

So a unit with low initial off will suffer more in average if they losse an officer in battle. Right what happend in rl..
Same to nco etc..

Also units like Mtn wuld need a higher number of nco, and units like planes would need much more officers and nco's but few normal MP.
So if your pool of officers is empty it will build without and your units will be hampered by bad morale/org/combat stat malus..
This could be countered to an extend with good training, and if you have later enough off/nco to fill up the ranks.(-> The Su gets better year after year..)
If your units gain experience it should loose some if it needs to much reinforcements. Units were able to keep their lvl of combat experience up to some lvl of lost men. So this should only kick in after big losses, like below 50%, or with an incremental modifier.(Starting low, getting higher the higher the losses are.)

To round it up:
It would be very nice to have production of the equipment seperated from the unit training.
So building tanks and training men to use them would be a different story..
Also would make the representation of reinforce tanks or men much more realistic. No tanks= much worse combat stats..

To have it even highly abstracted it would be sufficient to have just three more values:

max_equipment_strength = 3000 -> Is the overall strength of the unit, in total men, numbers of planes or a percentage number for ships.
build_cost_equipment_ic = 1.5
build_time_equipment = 120
Click to expand...
So we also could have seperated the reinforce/repair costs/time for men and equipment.

In the end a unit woud look like this:

#Size Definitions
max_strength = 30 -> Is the overall strength of the unit, in total men, numbers of planes or a percentage number for ships so far.
max_equipment_strength = 25 -> Is the overall strength of the unit, in total men, numbers of planes or a percentage number for ships.
default_organisation = 20 -> This is the normal amount with all ranks filled
default_morale = 0.20 -> This is the normal amount with all ranks filled

#Building Costs
build_cost_ic = 1.5
build_cost_manpower = 2.90

build_cost_equipment_ic = 1.5
build_time_equipment = 120 -> Normal basic production time

nco = 100
officers = 10
build_time = 365 -> Normal basic training time
Click to expand...

Factories etc. could also need these three types of personnel and would suffer if they don't get their ranks filled.
So you could simulate the effect of having an army sucking up all your qualified men.


Added only one new value like the old MP value.(Like the suggested "QMP")
And three more values in each unit.
These values would need maybe some few modifiers attached to them by the engine.
F.e. the combat stat decrease if low on equipment, org/morale decrease when low on MP/NCO/Officer.
But as that could be static it would not be much more additional calculation.

Sounds good?

Cheers,
Chromos
 
Cybvep said:
Sounds interesting, but how would you control which MP type is used? For example, I build 3xINF+1xART - is trained MP or untrained MP used?
Click to expand...
Only quality manpower can be used to build artillery - you need trained men to man those units afterall. But there should be two types of brigades: 1. those built from trained manpower, and 2. those built from untrained manpower (only GAR, INF and MIL can be built from untrained MP). Those built from trained MP can only be reinforced from trained MP, never untrained, while those built from untrained MP can be reinforced with both trained and untrained MP. The 2. type of divisions should be possible to convert at will.

I think this could replace the "reserve" and "non reserve" distinction.

However, the problem is that this still wouldn't solve the problem with air units, because in order to get realistic results pilots should have their own MP pool.
Click to expand...
How about replacing education laws (<-- these are redundant) with air-unit training laws instead? Air units draw recruits from "untrained manpower" directly, and these get a training level depending on the air-unit training laws. The air units aren't relevant imo, the point with my suggestion is making it possible for nations to do desperate things.

Jazumir: Imo your suggestion will just add unnecessary complexity. What would "QMP" add to the game if it isn't required for reinforcing units? I mean with your rules, Germany wouldn't be able to mass-build volkssturm units while having understrength inf divisions, because the inf divisions can just be reinforced with regular MP. Which is contrary to the entire point with my suggestion, make the building of poor-quality divisions made up of kid/old men/untrained recruits realistic.
 
The flavour is great. You're extremly vague on what the mechanics should be though. A mechanism already exists to trade leadership for better troops. You can train officers.

What are you suggesting the tradeoff should be? Or is this just another system that the player will be able to game more efficiently than the AI. HOI 3 does not need any more of those.
 
A trisection of MP would imo be optimal.

Recruits - unskilled soldiers with no experience (for militia)
Conscripts - skilled soldiers with some experience (for regular divisions/brigades)
Volunteers - professional soldiers with elite/special purpose capacities (for marines, paratroopers, mountainous, elite)
 
that would not serve any gameplay purpose... It would just make things unnecessarily complex.

Amoral: With the system suggested in the OP Germany's situation in 1945 and the USSR's in 1941 could be properly modelled, and it also makes it possible to have laws that trade IC for Manpower (factories being closed). As for the AI: I think this should be easy to model. If there is too little trained manpower, lower the training laws (to get more trained manpower). If there still is too little trained manpower, start building infantry and militia divisions (like Germany and USSR did in 1945) from untrained manpower. If there is a lack of both trained and untrained manpower, start closing factories (because factories require {untrained} MP as well, in my system).
 
With the system suggested in the OP Germany's situation in 1945 and the USSR's in 1941 could be properly modelled, and it also makes it possible to have laws that trade IC for Manpower (factories being closed)
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This can be done even with the current system to a large extent. Have you ever played HPP? In HPP higher conscription laws decrease starting unit experience and decrease IC efficiency. The MP system works a bit differently than in Vanilla, though, because you get big MP bursts with better laws (which come with previously mentioned disadvantages), but still, it can be done. DH has a similar system, although a bit more advanced.

Personally, I think that every country has too little MP in HOI3 - in many cases you have to stop land unit production in 1941/1942, while IRL all major countries had bigger armies in 1944 than in 1941 (in some cases much bigger).
 
But it's somewhat of a difficult system, isn't it? In my suggestion MP would be released instantly as factories close, while in HPP it takes a while to build up MP.

And I agree with you about too little MP, tho I'm not sure if it would be possible to increase it due to more lag (more units => more lag).
 
I like the idea of a QMP pool (or some form of partitioning the MP pool). However, I think the Training laws could be used to some effect here, giving both bonuses and maluses befitting the training level.
For example: Basic Training would give the bonus to training time, a bonus to reinforcement cost, a lessened QMP cost for non-elite units, faster MP gain (easy to get people ready on a basic level). Penalty to MP --> QMP conversion, increased cost in QMP + time for elite units, penalty to exp gain for all units. Conversely, Specialist Training would penalize training time, penalize reinforcement cost, increase QMP cost for non-elites, slow down MP gain, increase MP --> QMP conversion, decrease the QMP + time for elite units, bonus to exp gain. Preferably make the training laws stepwise sequential and institute a delay (1 year maybe) between allowed shifts to prevent player abuse.
 
let's say 1 base IC requires 3 untrained MP. if you close it (temporarily) 3 MP will be released. To reopen it, you need 3 new untrained MP.
 
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