Whoa, Sibir!

[TheDarkMaster]

I thought I might try colonizing Siberia past Novgorod, and put a colony down there with 7 infantry, 6 cavalry, and 2 siege to defend it. Then I find out that I'm now at war with a horde, so I check the military page, and their tech. They've got 15 land, I've got 31, and all they have is 12 infantry and 2 Cavalry. I figure there is no way they'll beat me, as I've been fighting many of my European neighbors, and have had success even against forces larger then my own. Imagine my surprise when my force is wiped out with minimal loses on the Sibir side, and they seize my colony. Since they're a horde that I suddenly don't share a border with, war is canceled, and I can't re-declare war against them to get my colony back, since I don't share a border with them anymore. The only way I can get a border with them, is to take a province from Novgorod...

How is Sibir so much more powerful then the Europeans if they're at half our tech?!

[DDRJake]

They aren't. My guess is you got absolutely rock-bottom die rolls in combat, didn't have your military maintanence up, were taking awful attrition or some combination of the lot.

[TheDarkMaster]

Nope, max military maintenance, my best general, and on home soil (so to speak). There was no attrition on my troops, and they where at full strength.

I watched the fight happen, my guys where taking losses in the thousands to his losses in the tens...

[DDRJake]

May I get a copy of the savegame please?

[Blxz]

Is it possible sibir has had the great Kahn event? They may have access to incredibly powerful units (for that tech level at least). Actually I have no idea how that event works but I do know that blessings of god, at least, can change the techgroup allowing access to the special units for hordes.

[TheDarkMaster]

I'm not sure if you've got the version of the game I'm playing, but I loaded the game as them to see what they have.

Their leader is a tough soldier, and valorous with 8 military skill. They also have the great khan modifier (but haven't expanded with it). They have full quality and land, Military drill and Engineering corps. Their discipline score is 162%! However, their general isn't really anything special. I also messed up on their unit composition, it was 15 cavalry and 2 infantry, not the other way around.

The strange thing is, when I tried attacking my nation as Sibir, I lost horribly! So apparently the AI controlled Sibir was gaining an edge of some kind?

[DDRJake]

That discipline will nail you if you are significantly lower. Also, steppe cavalry is deadly especially if they start the battle with a massive shock roll.

If you are playing on Hard or Very hard, the AI will get a morale bonus. If you then switched to Sibir the morale bonus would have shifted to Your ex-nation.

The only thing I'm really going on here is the idea that they got lucky with die rolls. Since they were all cavalry with superior Steppe cavalry units, They surely must have just got some ultra luck. Have you replayed out the battle as your own side?

Another possibility is that there was some mistake in the new units for Steppes which gives them a massive shock multiplier bonus or somesuch. Check the pips their units get and the shock/fire multipliers (you'll see that on the same screen that shows military maintenance sliders.

[TheDarkMaster]

Okay, I'll do some replaying then. I am playing on normal difficulty.

Five times as the colonizers (139% discipline, DotF, 31 land):
1) Victory at huge cost to myself, and very little to my foe.
2) A victory with even losses on both sides.
3) A devastating defeat, my army was almost completely wiped out with almost no losses for my opposition.
4) I score a very near victory, but almost all of my army is gone while my enemy has minimal losses.
5) I lose with moderate losses, my foe suffers almost none.

Five times as the nomads (162% discipline, NIs, 18 land):
1) A devastating win, I take almost no losses to their massive losses.
2) I lose with moderate losses, my foe takes twice as many casualties.
3) I lose with moderate losses, my foe's numbers are devastated.
4) Same thing as 3.
5) Won with moderate losses, my foe's numbers are devastated.

I looked at the pips and number scores on the military tab. While the numbers on the main page suggest that my cavalry are much better (3.9 to 2.7 shock), the nomad's cavalry have many more pips then mine.

[DDRJake]

See, sounds like it's just the luck of the dice. You may have the tech advantage, but since they have almost all cavalry and superior discipline, they are able to fight toe-to-toe with you.

[Noctus]

Bad luck, it happens.

[TheDarkMaster]

The one thing I will point out is that the settlers never had fewer losses then the nomads. The nomads where always the favored side. Additionally, I've fought European nations to at least a draw with inferior forces, including the Holy Roman Emperor. I also forgot to mention that these fights where always over within 10 days, they never went longer then that, while my fights in Europe usually took much longer if we had forces close to this number.

[Blxz]

I also forgot to mention that these fights where always over within 10 days, they never went longer then that, while my fights in Europe usually took much longer if we had forces close to this number.

The joys of discipline. If you weren't sure what it does in-game, it basically is a multiplier to the number of kills your units get in an attack round. So they outnumber you with better pip units (although weaker tech) and superior discipline. You need more units out there to counter their numbers advantage. Sounds like a fun game overall with their great kahn event giving you a bit of challenge. That will eventually wear off and I would assume their discipline bonus goes with it. Enjoy the challenge while it lasts and put your Russian manpower to use and beef up your army size in that border province.

[TheDarkMaster]

I'm not Russian, it is a colony I set up so that I could settle Siberia. They aren't actually going to be a challenge, as I have 168 forcelimits at this point, I just had a really small expansion force in there in the first place because I didn't expect to face any other opposition then the 5000 natives that where on the province. The main frustrating thing was that I lost my only nearby province to the nomads, and losing the option to fight them, or settle Siberia at all.

Once I bring in another 30 regiments, the place should be mine pretty easy.

[gigau]

Odd, i don't remember givng the Hordes any special discipline bonus...

[TheDarkMaster]

Don't worry, their discipline doesn't come from special nation features.

Sibir's is:
+90% base
+16% current ruler
+40% quality
+5% military drill
+6% militia act
+5% tough soldier
=162%

Mine is:
+90% base
+12% current ruler
+24% quality
+6 militia act
+5% tough soldier
=137% (apparently I miss-wrote it earlier)

[gigau]

Yay... a problem i'm not responsible of ! \o/

[Blxz]

Yay... a problem i'm not responsible of ! \o/

HAHA. I find this quite amusing.