+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 21

Thread: Battles that resulted in defeat of both sides? (short lived victories)

  1. #1

    Battles that resulted in defeat of both sides? (short lived victories)

    I was watching Andromeda and they were talking about the Battle of the Witch Head Nebula where the remains of the Commonwealth fleet were ambushed by the Nietzschean Alliance, the battle apparently resulted in the ultimate destruction of the Commonwealth fleet but not before extreme losses on the Nietzschean side. The end result was that the Nietzschean were so weakend by the battle that they were unable to hold onto their newly conquered empire.

    I know there are real world examples of battles like this. What are the most famous?
    Last edited by xGhost4000x; 09-06-2012 at 23:14.
    "A dagger in the dark is worth a thousand swords at dawn." - Warhammer
    "Your words are as empty as your future. I am the vanguard of your destruction, this exchange is over." - Sovereign

  2. #2
    Well Pyrrhus is the classical example. But wars that ended up in exhaustion of the winning side were very common.

  3. #3
    Captain Clophiroth's Avatar
    Cities in MotionCrusader Kings IIEuropa Universalis: ChroniclesMagickaMarch of the Eagles
    Rome GoldSengokuSword of the StarsVictoria 2Victoria II: A House Divided
    Victoria II: Heart of DarknessMount & Blade: Warband500k club

    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    La ciudad de los conejos/ Rabbit´s city
    Posts
    386
    Quote Originally Posted by Amallric View Post
    Well Pyrrhus is the classical example. But wars that ended up in exhaustion of the winning side were very common.
    Isn´t Qadesh supposed to have both sides really weakened too?

  4. #4
    brusilov´s offensive. Or, well, almost any WW1 battle.

  5. #5
    Ship-shape and Bristol fashion beowulf's Avatar
    Arsenal of DemocracyHearts of Iron 2: ArmageddonCrusader Kings IIDeus VultEU3 Complete
    Divine WindFor The GloryHeir to the ThroneVictoria: RevolutionsSengoku
    Victoria 2Victoria II: A House Divided

    Join Date
    Apr 2001
    Location
    Ruling the waves.
    Posts
    9,089
    Borodino perhaps? Napoleon won against the Russians and could then march into Moscow thinking the Tsar would have to surrender, but instead found himself in a deadly trap about to spring on him.

    Quote Originally Posted by Clophiroth View Post
    Isn´t Qadesh supposed to have both sides really weakened too?
    Yes, but not to the extent that Egypt or the Hittites collapsed as a consequence.
    "A friend will help you move. A good friend will help you move a body." - Rich Hall

    "If there's one thing that really pisses me off, I call that a good day." - David Mitchell

    "Life is like a box of chocolates, in the end you're always stuck with the Marzipan."

  6. #6
    Battle of the Santa Cruz Islands, 26 October 1942.
    A Japanese tactical victory, but it cost them that which they could not replace.

  7. #7
    Second Lieutenant Happy_Lonely's Avatar
    Arsenal of DemocracyDeus VultEuropa Universalis: ChroniclesVictoria 2Victoria II: A House Divided

    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    The White Capital
    Posts
    122
    The last Byzantine-Sassanid war led eventually to destruction of the latter and near collapse of the former. It was a war though, not a single battle.
    + Christian Democrat by Grace of Choice +

  8. #8
    Field Marshal Finnish Dragon's Avatar
    Crusader Kings IIDeus VultEuropa Universalis 3Divine WindFor The Glory
    Hearts of Iron IIIHeir to the ThroneEuropa Universalis III: In NomineEU3 Napoleon's AmbitionVictoria: Revolutions
    Europa Universalis: RomeSengokuVictoria 2Rome: Vae VictisMount & Blade: Warband
    Mount & Blade: With Fire and SwordEuropa Universalis IV: Pre-order

    Join Date
    Jul 2002
    Location
    Turku or Hattula, Finland
    Posts
    2,535
    How about the Battle of Stamford Bridge in 1066? The Norwegian king Harald died and the Saxon army under Harold Godwinson was seriously weakened and later defeated by William the Conqueror in Hastings.

  9. #9
    Knight of Cydonia celedhring's Avatar
    Crusader Kings IIEU3 CompleteDivine WindHeir to the ThroneHoi 2 Beta
    Europa Universalis IV: Pre-orderEUIV: Call to arms event

    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Location
    Vila de Gràcia, hipster capital.
    Posts
    3,402
    Any war where a third party profits from two sides that have bloodied themselves would be a good candidate. Was thinking, for example, of Francisco Pizarro descending into the Inca Empire and capturing Atahualpa right after the Inca emperor had defeated rival prince Huascar in a civil war.
    El himno del Barça es para el fútbol lo que el Satisfaction de los Rolling Stones para el Rock'n'roll
    -Andrés Montes-

    Member of the starting XI that won the Paradox World Cup for Spain
    Presidente de la Federación Paradoxiana de Fútbol Español
    Ganador del Tour de Francia como jefe de filas del Euskaltel

  10. #10
    Lt. General Narwhal's Avatar
    200k clubHearts of Iron 2: ArmageddonCrusader Kings IIEast India CompanyElven Legacy Collection
    Europa Universalis 3EU3 CompleteHearts of Iron IIIHeir to the ThroneEuropa Universalis III: In Nomine
    Majesty 2EU3 Napoleon's AmbitionPenumbra - Black PlagueRome GoldMount & Blade: Warband
    Pride of NationsRise of Prussia

    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    Paris, France
    Posts
    1,265
    The famous battle of Lützen - often seen as a turning point of the 30YW - is a perfect example. Sweden keeps the ground, but their king is dead, their impetus gone, and they lost more men (from an already smaller force).
    Learning from Prussia - a Rise of Prussia AAR for beginners - or how a forced march in winter saved Prussia from anniliation.
    A Tale of French and War Crimes : A double Multiplayer AAR of Wars in America with Loki100. Includes violence against English and Indians - not suited for children.
    The War of 1812 - or how I burned down Washington

  11. #11
    Ship-shape and Bristol fashion beowulf's Avatar
    Arsenal of DemocracyHearts of Iron 2: ArmageddonCrusader Kings IIDeus VultEU3 Complete
    Divine WindFor The GloryHeir to the ThroneVictoria: RevolutionsSengoku
    Victoria 2Victoria II: A House Divided

    Join Date
    Apr 2001
    Location
    Ruling the waves.
    Posts
    9,089
    Quote Originally Posted by Narwhal View Post
    The famous battle of Lützen - often seen as a turning point of the 30YW - is a perfect example. Sweden keeps the ground, but their king is dead, their impetus gone, and they lost more men (from an already smaller force).
    Yes, but Sweden then went on to keep fighting for 16 years with varying success, eventually ending up on the winning side and being considered one of the great powers of Europe for some time after that.
    "A friend will help you move. A good friend will help you move a body." - Rich Hall

    "If there's one thing that really pisses me off, I call that a good day." - David Mitchell

    "Life is like a box of chocolates, in the end you're always stuck with the Marzipan."

  12. #12
    The Third World War.
    I am a foreigner trying to improve my command of written English. If you see any orthographic or grammatical mistakes in my ramblings, please be so kind as to let me know.

  13. #13
    Major
    Crusader Kings IIDarkest HourFor the MotherlandHearts of Iron IIIHOI3: Their Finest Hour
    Semper FiVictoria 2Pride of NationsCK2: Holy Knight500k club
    Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order

    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Antwerpen ,Belgium
    Posts
    632
    the battle of Jutland, german tactical victory but their fleet was so damaged that they stayed docked for the rest of WW1

    pelloponesian war, sparta won, but was weakened enough for thebes to gain power shortly afterwards
    Just because everyone is capable of having an opinion doesn't mean that nobody is full of shit.

    The lack of Belgian patriotism is easily demonstrated by this: there is 1 somewhat succesfull (AKA it's sometimes heard on radios) pro-belgium song and it's sung and written by a dutch man (not an immigrant either, someone who still lives in the Netherlands)

  14. #14
    Unelmavävy hyder's Avatar
    Hearts of Iron III

    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Kittilä/Jyväskylä Finland
    Posts
    462
    The Winter War and the Karelian defensive battles of the summer of 1944. Finnish forces repeatedly repulsed major Soviet attacks but on both instances were themselves weakened so much that they had to sue for a disadvantageous peace.
    "Computers are incredibly fast, accurate and stupid. Human beings are incredibly slow, inaccurate, and brilliant."
    - Albert Einstein

    Dixi, et animam levavi.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Narwhal View Post
    The famous battle of Lützen - often seen as a turning point of the 30YW - is a perfect example. Sweden keeps the ground, but their king is dead, their impetus gone, and they lost more men (from an already smaller force).
    Well, that was a blow, but the real dog-years for the Swedish fighting in Germany came after the defeat at Nördlingen two years later. Otoh that victory might perhaps qualify for the Habsburgs re the OP?

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by hyder View Post
    The Winter War and the Karelian defensive battles of the summer of 1944. Finnish forces repeatedly repulsed major Soviet attacks but on both instances were themselves weakened so much that they had to sue for a disadvantageous peace.
    They kept their freedom and government institutions. How many other countries invaded by the Red army got that much?

  17. #17
    General Nuisance Culise's Avatar
    Crusader Kings IIDarkest HourDeus VultEuropa Universalis 3Divine Wind
    For The GloryHearts of Iron III CollectionHeir to the ThroneEuropa Universalis III: In NomineEU3 Napoleon's Ambition
    Victoria: RevolutionsSengokuVictoria 2Victoria II: A House DividedVictoria II: Heart of Darkness
    Warlock: Master of the ArcanePride of NationsCK2: Holy Knight500k clubEuropa Universalis IV: Pre-order

    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    Moscow on the Mississippi
    Posts
    871
    Quote Originally Posted by bugwar View Post
    They kept their freedom and government institutions. How many other countries invaded by the Red army got that much?
    They lost an eighth of their population, their second-largest city, and a major industrial region in Karelia in spite of their best efforts. How many winners can say that much? Yes, they lost by less than many others could claim, and they did amazingly well to manage that much against a numerically-superior foe like the Soviets, but it's hardly a victory.

    Winners that lose? Well, since it came up in another thread, the Targowica Confederacy that tried to turn back the progressive reforms in Poland. Backed by Catherine the Great, they successfully defeated the revolutionaries and Jacobins, even wooing the King to their cause. Their reward was the Second Partition of Poland, which ended with them being considered traitors by Poland at large. Oops.
    “We shall not cease from exploration, and the end of all our exploring will be to arrive where we started and know the place for the first time.”
    -T.S. Elliot

  18. #18
    Unelmavävy hyder's Avatar
    Hearts of Iron III

    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Kittilä/Jyväskylä Finland
    Posts
    462
    Quote Originally Posted by Culise View Post
    They lost an eighth of their population, their second-largest city, and a major industrial region in Karelia in spite of their best efforts. How many winners can say that much? Yes, they lost by less than many others could claim, and they did amazingly well to manage that much against a numerically-superior foe like the Soviets, but it's hardly a victory.
    Eight of the population? 12,5%?
    Census in 1940 said 3 695 617 people. Wikipedia says 90 146 soldiers and 2086 civilians dead or missing by the end of the Lapland war and not counting the POWs returned by the Russians. That comes around 2,5%, no? Note that the population from Karelia and other occupied areas were evacuated before the Soviets moved in.

    Other than that, I agree. And also would like to remind about the heavy war reparations.
    Last edited by hyder; 21-06-2012 at 00:48.
    "Computers are incredibly fast, accurate and stupid. Human beings are incredibly slow, inaccurate, and brilliant."
    - Albert Einstein

    Dixi, et animam levavi.

  19. #19
    General Nuisance Culise's Avatar
    Crusader Kings IIDarkest HourDeus VultEuropa Universalis 3Divine Wind
    For The GloryHearts of Iron III CollectionHeir to the ThroneEuropa Universalis III: In NomineEU3 Napoleon's Ambition
    Victoria: RevolutionsSengokuVictoria 2Victoria II: A House DividedVictoria II: Heart of Darkness
    Warlock: Master of the ArcanePride of NationsCK2: Holy Knight500k clubEuropa Universalis IV: Pre-order

    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    Moscow on the Mississippi
    Posts
    871
    Quote Originally Posted by hyder View Post
    Eight of the population? 12,5%?
    Census in 1940 said 3 695 617 people. Wikipedia says 90 146 soldiers and 2086 civilians dead or missing by the end of the Lapland war and not counting the POWs returned by the Russians. That comes around 2,5%, no? Note that the population from Karelia and other occupied areas were evacuated before the Soviets moved in.

    Other than that, I agree. And also would like to remind about the heavy war reparations.
    Oh, dear, you're completely right. I was thinking about the population of the ceded Karelian territories, but I completely forgot that they almost universally elected to move west in order to remain in Finland rather than staying and coming under the rule of the Soviets, so they weren't actually lost to Finland.
    “We shall not cease from exploration, and the end of all our exploring will be to arrive where we started and know the place for the first time.”
    -T.S. Elliot

  20. #20
    ಠ_ರೃ KanaX's Avatar
    Darkest HourEuropa Universalis 3Europa Universalis: Chronicles

    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Finnland, Das Land des ernsten Blicks
    Posts
    2,066
    I think the Finnish tactical victories in 1944 don't really qualify as battles that, by OP's definition, resulted "in defeat of both sides". The Soviet Union was clearly the victor and it's influence in Finland after the war increased massively , compared to the situation before the war. The setbacks on the Karelian front didn't really cripple the Red Army nor was the risk of future invasion completely deterred, as was witnessed during the Lapland War.
    WritAAR of the Week 4/11/2008
    I was canonized!
    Know your place, pleb.


    It is hard to have patience with people who say "There is no death" or "Death doesn't matter." There is death. And whatever is matters. And whatever happens has consequences, and it and they are irrevocable and irreversible. You might as well say that birth doesn't matter. -C.S. Lewis

+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts