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Rebirth of the Forgotten Continent

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While I applaud the Imperator for his plans to finally bring decisive action to the west and will be glad to see these bandits finally brought under control- I must object on the matter of slavery.
To free these people would unleash an angry mob across the western frontier.

I propose a compromise- currently the children of slaves stay slaves. What if any children of slaves were born free. Thus ending slavery "naturally" as the slaves eventually die out, thus ending slavery but not sizing property from Atlantian families.
 
robb1993 said:
While I applaud the Imperator for his plans to finally bring decisive action to the west and will be glad to see these bandits finally brought under control- I must object on the matter of slavery.
To free these people would unleash an angry mob across the western frontier.

I propose a compromise- currently the children of slaves stay slaves. What if any children of slaves were born free. Thus ending slavery "naturally" as the slaves eventually die out, thus ending slavery but not sizing property from Atlantian families.
Click to expand...

Slavery can only bring hate and distrust between us and the Urollans. We are all Atlanteans and it is high time our policies begin to reflect that fact. I believe that the Urollans can become productive members of society and that slavery will only exacerbate any remaining enmity between us.

Fear not, my aristocratic friend. With our conquests there will be plenty of new lands to use in farming and grazing. Besides, a wealthy man like yourself does not need to make use of slaves on his lands... surely you can afford the luxury of free labour...

---Graetius---
 
August Imperator,

Myself and my confederates understand the necessity of civil integration. Indeed, we all seek the unification of the Urollan provinces and their inhabitants into the Republic, without undue bloodshed. As such, it would be tempting to ply the slaves of these barbarians with full citizenship, and so render our conquest with the sheen of liberation and lay the foundations for harmony and good relations. Surely this shall promote peace in our new provinces?

But the Urollans, having been admitted to our commonwealth, shall evacuate their squalid lands for our prosperous cities. The market will be flooded with cheap labour; wages shall be depressed and idleness shall increase. Our own citizenry shall find themselves suffering without work or livelihood. Poverty will reign on the streets. The people shall demand redress. Tensions will rise between urbanites and immigrants; rioting and rebellion may follow soon after. Far from promoting stability and friendship, such an unconditional offer shall conspire to create unrest and distrust. An inauspicious start to our endeavours to unite the continent.

For these reasons, I suggest that we stagger the introduction of former slaves into our society. A river left rampant shall drown the crops and leave us hungry; a controlled stream shall sow the seeds of prosperity.

My proposal is thus: that any existing slaves appropriated from the Urollan provinces after their conquest be impressed into the legions of the Republic. Our losses shall thereby be replenished and our legions restored to full strength. Moreover, liberated slaves shall be instructed in our language and culture, to ease their assimilation into our society. They shall learn that citizenship is earned through loyalty to the Republic, and not merely entitled. After ten years of service, they shall be granted full rights of citizenship and, if they so desire it, be released from army service. Thus, they will be ready to contribute to our society as fully naturalised citizens of the Republic, not mistrusting and malcontent aliens still scarred by military humiliation.

I pray my fellow representatives recognise this ideal solution, which shall protect the rights and privileges of our citizens, ensure the good order of our society, safeguard our economy from depression, and provide the Republic with ample men to provide for a standing army on her southern frontier.

- Caesennia Caprica
 
cavebear3000 said:
Slavery can only bring hate and distrust between us and the Urollans. We are all Atlanteans and it is high time our policies begin to reflect that fact. I believe that the Urollans can become productive members of society and that slavery will only exacerbate any remaining enmity between us.

Fear not, my aristocratic friend. With our conquests there will be plenty of new lands to use in farming and grazing. Besides, a wealthy man like yourself does not need to make use of slaves on his lands... surely you can afford the luxury of free labour...

---Graetius---
Click to expand...

Unfortunately decades of war and raiding have killed off the men and have resulted in the women being taken as slaves by those whose "liberty" you now seek to protect. Slaves from counter-raids are the only way to keep some farms running.

These lands you speak of, I'll bet my last penny that they are settled by Urollans before they are settled by my kinsmen. Frankly, there is too much to loose for my people and myself from these policies. We have no guarantees of any gains.
I suggest we all collectively look to our own people first before we look to the needs of the cattle-thieves. After all if we are rich then our society will be envied, and envy is a good business incentive. No man wants to join a poor state or a state that deprives it's own citizens at the expense of outsiders. For the Urollans may simply think "when the next people are incorporated we will loose our privileges" and this can lead to all sorts of problems.
 
Syriana said:
August Imperator,

Myself and my confederates understand the necessity of civil integration. Indeed, we all seek the unification of the Urollan provinces and their inhabitants into the Republic, without undue bloodshed. As such, it would be tempting to ply the slaves of these barbarians with full citizenship, and so render our conquest with the sheen of liberation and lay the foundations for harmony and good relations. Surely this shall promote peace in our new provinces?

But the Urollans, having been admitted to our commonwealth, shall evacuate their squalid lands for our prosperous cities. The market will be flooded with cheap labour; wages shall be depressed and idleness shall increase. Our own citizenry shall find themselves suffering without work or livelihood. Poverty will reign on the streets. The people shall demand redress. Tensions will rise between urbanites and immigrants; rioting and rebellion may follow soon after. Far from promoting stability and friendship, such an unconditional offer shall conspire to create unrest and distrust. An inauspicious start to our endeavours to unite the continent.

For these reasons, I suggest that we stagger the introduction of former slaves into our society. A river left rampant shall drown the crops and leave us hungry; a controlled stream shall sow the seeds of prosperity.

My proposal is thus: that any existing slaves appropriated from the Urollan provinces after their conquest be impressed into the legions of the Republic. Our losses shall thereby be replenished and our legions restored to full strength. Moreover, liberated slaves shall be instructed in our language and culture, to ease their assimilation into our society. They shall learn that citizenship is earned through loyalty to the Republic, and not merely entitled. After ten years of service, they shall be granted full rights of citizenship and, if they so desire it, be released from army service. Thus, they will be ready to contribute to our society as fully naturalised citizens of the Republic, not mistrusting and malcontent aliens still scarred by military humiliation.

I pray my fellow representatives recognise this ideal solution, which shall protect the rights and privileges of our citizens, ensure the good order of our society, safeguard our economy from depression, and provide the Republic with ample men to provide for a standing army on her southern frontier.

- Caesennia Caprica
Click to expand...
*Illriyo rubs his temples*
You make several good points senator Caprica but unfortunatelly this solution is far from ideal. Most of Urollan slaves, as those living on the Western border know, are our own citizens or their descendants captured in raids. I hope you would agree that our people should not be subjected to slavery. Even if we were to go threw and release all Atlanzean people, or ones of that ethnicity we would only be encouraging further division through creating a racial hierarchy. Also a man impressed into our military would desert the first chance he got, we would only be putting speers into the hands of those that resent us.
Now you still make several good points, we shouldn't allow the Urollans workforce to flood the market, which is why we should, for a time at least, have our armies halt any inhabitants of our newly annexed territories from moving west. Let us try to help them reconstruct their homeland after the war. This Reconstruction will sow the seeds of trust and co-exsistence and eventually we will be able to integrate them fully into our society.
*And with that Illriyo stood and walked out of the senate chamber, heading east on the orders of the Imperatar to seek alliances from the other Atlantean Republics and make new friends for the coming years.
((Illriyo has left the senate chamber and can't interact or listen to anyones conversation))
 
Vulpis, having listened (with varying degrees of disinterest) to the many arguments about the current issues, rises once again. clears his throat, and says...

Senators, I wish to state some support for Caprica's proposal, as it seems most akin to mine; we must ensure that the Urollans are treated fairly, as Graetius has said many times, but we also must ensure that they are both unable and unwilling to rise up against our soldiers. By bringing them into the ranks of our armies, and granting them full citizenship after ten years of service, we make certain of two things; first, that our armies will be easily reinforced, and that serving will be incentivised, and second, that by taking the strongest and most able Urollans (indeed, any of our neighbours) into our service, we will ensure that our newly acquired lands will not rise against us, for they will be unable to. From there, we can begin to assimilate them into our nation, and they will gain full citizenship; I disagree with the notion that our new acquisitions should instantly be granted citizenship, for their people may still harbour dark feelings towards us; I believe we should grant them certain rights, and perhaps a degree of autonomy, until such a time that we are certain that they can be fully integrated into our empire. This will provide us with several benefits; first, we will not be conquerors, per se, but liberators, bringing a more republican system to their people; second, by granting them a degree of autonomy, we can divert our invaluable resources to other endeavours, such as bettering our relations with our neighbours; third, by delaying integration into Atlantis proper, whilst still granting them certain rights that all of our people enjoy, we will ensure that they are content, and want to become full members of our society.
 
cavebear3000 said:
((Honestly, we can easily take down the Urollans and grab their 3-4 provinces without overextension. I've had diplomats sent to the East seeking alliances and, rest assured, we will have some powerful allies by the next Vox Pops))
Click to expand...
(( I know that full well. I have told several ppl over PMs, maybe you as well not sure, my character doesn't really believe that unification is feasible on the short term, so I'm just role playing a solution that will end the problems in a way she thinks would be effective. Basically in game turns the suggestion means occupy and colonize whatever provinces border us, which I think is all or all but one, no? Then maybe the last one if it looks easy, which it obviously will. So essentially my proposal is full annexation, just wrapped up in talk that feels more plausible to me :p ))
 
If there is a mutiny, then the main ranks of our men will put them down; they will be enough to be useful allies, but too few to truly challenge our power. Either way, by guaranteeing their citizenship, and treating their fellows humanely, the chance they mutiny is... unlikely, at best.
 
I cannot win this debate and so I withdraw. The merit of your argument, while I disagree, clearly appeals to the people. I am outvoted and outshouted. In the spirit of Atlantean democracy I concede to you.

But I, Senator Othollo, will have it be known I stand firmly with the Mercator camp.
 
I am much heartened by Senator Aureolis' statement of support.

Senators, it appears we are unanimous in our desire to see the Urollan provinces unified with Azlanxo, and the Urollan peoples reconciled with the Republic. We differ only in our proposed methods. It is my belief that our best hope for a lasting settlement lies with the conscription of the male Urollan population, combined with concessions to the remaining population and promises of full citizenship for services rendered to the Republic. We shall sweep away all resistance without recourse to excess violence. We shall endear ourselves to the local population and encourage their fervour for republicanism. And we shall set ourselves in high esteem with the rest of the continent for our benevolence in victory. Truly, this shall be a glorious first step in our goal of reunification.

I have considered the points of Senator Illyrio. But my concerns with controlled immigration are two-fold. First, it will necessitate maintaining a military presence along the internal border between Ossen and Azlanxo, which would defeat the purpose of subjugating the Urollan provinces in the first place. Second, it will hinder our colonisation efforts; the Urollans, instead of being integrated into our society, shall connive together to resist our values and government. We cannot stomach an insurgency. We must ensure that the Urollan provinces are peaceably pacified, and their inhabitants brought into the fold of our society without resistance. This is best accomplished by army service, that shall ingrain our values and traditions into the Urollans and foster in them loyalty to the Republic.

Codifying the principles of my original statement, and incorporating suggestions from the honourable Senator Aureolis, I have produced a proposal for executive approval. This bill shall provide for the annexation, pacification and colonisation of the Urollan provinces following the successful conduct of our campaign. It shall guarantee the loyalty and support of the Urollan population without disadvantaging at our own. It shall provide for the government of the province in all matters. And it shall see Ossen transformed from barbarian wilderness to civilised county within our own generation. The text reads as follows:

Law in Regards to the Annexation of the Urollan Provinces (Lex Caprica et Aureolia)

ANNEX I

GOVERNMENT

1. The Urollan provinces shall be annexed to the Republic of Azlanxo.
2. Ossen shall become an autonomous province within the commonwealth of the Republic.
3. The Republic shall commission the office of Praetor for Ossen:
(a) to oversee the domestic affairs of the province;
(b) to uphold order and the rule of law;
(c) to regulate its finances.
4. The office of Praetor shall abide by these stipulations:
(a) that it shall be appointed by the Imperator;
(b) that its holder shall serve a four-year term;
(d) that an incumbent serving a second term must be reappointed by the Imperator;
(c) that no incumbent may serve more than two consecutive terms.
5. The Praetor may be recalled by vote of the Senate:
(a) if evidence is presented of malfeasance, kleptocracy, or treason.

ANNEX II

POPULATION

1. Every Urollan who accepts the law of the Republic shall be granted protection under it:
(a) they shall have the right to appeal to the law for redress.
2. Every able-bodied Urollan male, between and including the ages of fourteen and thirty-five, excepting those who are married, shall be impressed into the legions:
(a) to ease their assimilation into our society;
(b) to replenish our losses in the conquest of Ossen;
(c) to provide for a standing army for the Republic.
3. Following ten years of service, Urollan conscripts shall be offered discharge with full rights of citizenship:
(a) the right to stand for public office;
(b) the right to vote at assembly;
(c) the right to petition and legislate for the Republic.

ANNEX III

COLONISATION

1. Any citizen of the Republic shall have the right to settle in Ossen.
2. The office of Praetor for Ossen shall allocate for the distribution of land for settlers.
3. Financial incentives shall be provided:
(a) to encourage migration to Ossen;
(b) to promote trade and exchange;
(c) to foster the provincial economy.
4. Veterans of the Urollan campaign, having been discharged from service, shall be settled in Ossen.
Click to expand...

Therefore, I implore the Imperator to present this proposal to the house and put it to vote.

- Caesennia Caprica
 
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A sound proposal, but there is one small proviso I would like to make; rather than every Urollan male, perhaps it would be more prudent for every unmarried male? That way, we would not wrench families apart, and therefor keep the people happier. As well, if they another, voluntary, stint in the army, will they be granted plots of land?

And on that note, I second the proposal to be voted on by the Senate.
 
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I agree that it is a well crafted proposition; however, I object to the phrase "who accepts the law of the Republic". Would it not be clearer legally to just apply all legal rights and constraints onto the entire population of the captured provinces? Also, would it not be reasonable to allow the post of Praetor you would create to be elected by the people of Ossen rather than centrally appointed? Showing them the benefits of Azlanti democracy can only make them more likely to integrate into our society; maybe a clause should be added that this post should be elected within 50 years, on condition that the province is stable enough.
 
I agree with Senator Aureolis's point. Ripping apart families is never a good option, and a man who is pulled forcefully away from his wife and children will always be and resentful of the people who did it. That is most certainly not a good starting point for integrating the Urollan into society. - Alexite Wardoxan
 
I hope with all my heart this goes to a vote in Congress where all true level headed Atlanteans will foot this proposal of mercy and "rights" into the floor where it belongs.
 
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