Rebirth of the Forgotten Continent

[quicksabre]

I would like to humbly accept my appointment. I would also like to offer my support for a UL coalition if Senator Smigt is interested (( by my math I would add about 1.5 points to the leader stats, which probably amounts to 1 since the 17 points was already rounded up? )).

Pertaining to the proposed bills:
I am surprised at Urenahin's objection to the division of rights according to legal status. I believe that the division into general, legal, and citizen's rights is optimal for the protection of human rights and the protection of our nation. It is elegant in its simplicity - basic human rights are allotted to all humans, while basic legal rights are allotted to all legal residents. Representation is reserved for citizens, as is the right to live free of servitude. The latter right being only for citizens allows for the slaves which held drive our economy, but, as legal residents of Atlantis they are afforded all other rights except representation - including rights to hold property, family, and, most importantly, legal recourse (( sorry, what is the requirement for citizenship here? I feel like there was something about being born in the country, but I might be making that up - if slaves have the right to families and being born makes you a citizen, that means that children of slaves are born free - this has obvious consequences, whether you consider them good or bad for Atlantis )). With regards to specific concerns about using the right to religion to justify child sacrifice and the like, I would point out that the bill explicitly forbids the use of one right to infringe on another person's rights. In this case it would infringe on the rights of the victim from torture and avoidable death. I support this motion, both the revised wordings and especially the structure of the law.

Regarding the Atlantean Games, I am in full support. Games will bring our nation closer together by bringing athletes from across the provinces together in healthy competition. Perhaps this will surprise my fellow senators, but I am in full agreement with Senator Smigt regarding the role of the Gods in the games - the Games should be played in honor of the gods, as are all things we do, but they not should not be seen a religious ceremony. Sports are separate from religion and from gods.
Pertaining to the rules, I want to suggest the addition of martial arts - fencing, archery, boxing, and wrestling. I would also add an additional clause (8) that the IOC is responsible for determining qualification of athletes and representative sports. (( I LOVE this act, by the way. Can we write an event pool for it? I can't do it right away but I could do it in about 2 weeks - once the real games are over ))

[theAhawk]

With her as part of the cabinet, I would be overjoyed to announce a coalition with the independent senator, Ponita Krupt ((By my calculations its actually two points [18.57 compared to 16.88])). I would also like to thank the senator for her support of my proposed legislation, and I shall be incorporating her suggestions into the bills.

((I would say the requirement for citizenship would be to be one of two things; being the child of a citizen or being given legal paperwork by the state. That allows for both social progression and the children of non-citizens to not automatically become citizens.))

Changes to bills:
1. AGA clause 4 - addition of fencing, archery, boxing, and wrestling.
2. AGA new clause - "The IOC is responsible for determining qualification of athletes and representative sports."

[Kaioo]

"I must apologise for our talks stagnating Senator, due to my being out of the Senate at the time it took a relatively long time for the messages to reach me, and by the time I was able to formulate a reply, I received news of which that everything had already been decided, and as such my reply was no longer relevant. I would like to humbly accept the post you have offered me."-Auron Desimodius

[etranger01]

((I just assumed we got our seats through the Roman method -- patronage, demagoguery, and back-door deals. Oh, and "democracy", too.))

[SirkTheMonkey]

Ah, Senator Krupt. It pleases me to hear your voice in the Senate again.

I am surprised at Urenahin's objection to the division of rights according to legal status. I believe that the division into general, legal, and citizen's rights is optimal for the protection of human rights and the protection of our nation. It is elegant in its simplicity - basic human rights are allotted to all humans, while basic legal rights are allotted to all legal residents. Representation is reserved for citizens, as is the right to live free of servitude. The latter right being only for citizens allows for the slaves which held drive our economy, but, as legal residents of Atlantis they are afforded all other rights except representation - including rights to hold property, family, and, most importantly, legal recourse (( sorry, what is the requirement for citizenship here? I feel like there was something about being born in the country, but I might be making that up - if slaves have the right to families and being born makes you a citizen, that means that children of slaves are born free - this has obvious consequences, whether you consider them good or bad for Atlantis )). With regards to specific concerns about using the right to religion to justify child sacrifice and the like, I would point out that the bill explicitly forbids the use of one right to infringe on another person's rights. In this case it would infringe on the rights of the victim from torture and avoidable death. I support this motion, both the revised wordings and especially the structure of the law.

It might be difficult to discern from the official record but I had no objections to the division of rights based on a person's status; such a division was not present in the original text of the amendment. If the Senator is curious, I have a copy of the original text in my office that I would be glad to have copied and sent over. ((This is why I asked for the change to be posted.))
- Senator Alamander Urenahin (Mercator), representing Ordika province.

[theAhawk]

I believe that it is time for our great nation to ((literally)) sing with one voice. That is why I am commissioning a competition to write a national anthem to unify the country. The competition shall be judged upon by a vote of congress and I hope that it shall be completed by the time we come to the next election. I welcome all submissions of anthems.

I shall start by submitting my entry, "O Atlantis!" ((Sung, unsurprisingly, to the tune of "O Canada!")):

O Atlantis!
The city of the seas.
The greatest men, in all the land you have.
Across the seas, we help you sail;
Republic strong and free!
From far and wide,
O Atlantis, we stand on guard for thee.
May Gods on high, keep our country free!
O Atlantis, we stand on guard for thee.
O Atlantis, we stand on guard for thee.

[quicksabre]

Ah, Senator Krupt. It pleases me to hear your voice in the Senate again.It might be difficult to discern from the official record but I had no objections to the division of rights based on a person's status; such a division was not present in the original text of the amendment. If the Senator is curious, I have a copy of the original text in my office that I would be glad to have copied and sent over. ((This is why I asked for the change to be posted.))
- Senator Alamander Urenahin (Mercator), representing Ordika province.

I apologize Senator Urenahin, I was absent for the debate and decided to rely on the official transcript. You do not need to provide the original text, I believe you.

[Mr. Capiatlist]

((Azlanxo has a flag: it is two white dolphins with red fins on a blue field. ))

[theAhawk]

((I hadn't noticed that... Oh well, I've edited it now so it's only an anthem competition... Though maybe we should be using a new, non-monarchist flag...))

[Riccardo93]

I offer my support to the reforms suggested by the new Imperator (excluding the repeal of the Lex Tauronia). These Atlantean Games sound particularly interesting.

However, I and my legion shall be heading south, as I have been requesting for the past few days, to contain and quell the ramapant banditry on our southern border.

[SirkTheMonkey]

Given that the current version of the Constitutional Amendment for Human Rights seems to have reached consensus I'll outline my issues with the current draft of the Freedom of Information Act.

"3.Statistics shall be published on the size, wealth and other social and economic data points following a census." - What efforts will be made to obfuscate this data? I know the Imperatar has repeatedly stressed that published data will be anonymous but unless the data is only given as national totals, national averages, etc. I can foresee situations where a person's private information could be gleaned by way of mathematics and the other logical sciences. Consider my province of Ordika: Most of the population is made up of itinerant tribespeople with some settlers and few 'well off' people. Say a data point about the most wealthy person was published: it would be child's play to determine who it was and then you know about what should be someone's private financial affairs. Unscrupulous burghers could convince nomadic tribes to reside at their towns and those published population statistics could very well be used to lure the unwary into seeking a new life in what they think is a thriving community but is actually a ghost town.

"4.A register of Senators and Judges interests or gifts totalling more than 100 denarii each shall be published every month." - I'll ignore the flagrant violation of a Senator or Judge's right to privacy and focus on an issue with the cost limit. How does one determine the value of a gift? Say dignitary from Ilunleher gives me a copy of Rutolus Thrune's famous treatise 'On the Norran People', how am I to value that? A bookseller I do business with in the city would give me 60 denarii for it but would sell it for almost 200. A friend would give me whatever I ask because he's been looking for it to complete his collection. Which of these values, if any, do I use? Am I to rudely ask the dignitary how much he paid for it so I know whether to report it or not to the officials? ((I'm making assumptions about the cost of a book assuming that the 100 denarii represents something valuable but not extravagantly so.))

With regard to the other business being discussed in the Senate:
- I would like to express my support for the changes made to the Atlantean Games Act. I would also like to propose a minor amendment to it.
"9. The IOC may, with the permission of the Senate of Atlantis, invite athletes from abroad to participate in the Games."
- I would like to express my support for the Imperatar's national song competition. Such a song could be a powerful unifying force for our Republic. I wish good luck to those entering; unlike the Imperatar, my focused education on the legislative and diplomatic sciences has left me with the lyrical skill of a drunken derelict.
- I would like to express my support for General-Senator Aureolis and his legion being dispatched to help deal with banditry in the southern provinces. It is my hope that proposed legislation will not impact his Senatorial rights and abilities.
Senator Alamander Urenahin (Mercator), representing Ordika province

[theAhawk]

Given that the current version of the Constitutional Amendment for Human Rights seems to have reached consensus I'll outline my issues with the current draft of the Freedom of Information Act.

"3.Statistics shall be published on the size, wealth and other social and economic data points following a census." - What efforts will be made to obfuscate this data? I know the Imperatar has repeatedly stressed that published data will be anonymous but unless the data is only given as national totals, national averages, etc. I can foresee situations where a person's private information could be gleaned by way of mathematics and the other logical sciences. Consider my province of Ordika: Most of the population is made up of itinerant tribespeople with some settlers and few 'well off' people. Say a data point about the most wealthy person was published: it would be child's play to determine who it was and then you know about what should be someone's private financial affairs. Unscrupulous burghers could convince nomadic tribes to reside at their towns and those published population statistics could very well be used to lure the unwary into seeking a new life in what they think is a thriving community but is actually a ghost town.

"4.A register of Senators and Judges interests or gifts totalling more than 100 denarii each shall be published every month." - I'll ignore the flagrant violation of a Senator or Judge's right to privacy and focus on an issue with the cost limit. How does one determine the value of a gift? Say dignitary from Ilunleher gives me a copy of Rutolus Thrune's famous treatise 'On the Norran People', how am I to value that? A bookseller I do business with in the city would give me 60 denarii for it but would sell it for almost 200. A friend would give me whatever I ask because he's been looking for it to complete his collection. Which of these values, if any, do I use? Am I to rudely ask the dignitary how much he paid for it so I know whether to report it or not to the officials? ((I'm making assumptions about the cost of a book assuming that the 100 denarii represents something valuable but not extravagantly so.))

With regard to the other business being discussed in the Senate:
- I would like to express my support for the changes made to the Atlantean Games Act. I would also like to propose a minor amendment to it.
"9. The IOC may, with the permission of the Senate of Atlantis, invite athletes from abroad to participate in the Games."
- I would like to express my support for the Imperatar's national song competition. Such a song could be a powerful unifying force for our Republic. I wish good luck to those entering; unlike the Imperatar, my focused education on the legislative and diplomatic sciences has left me with the lyrical skill of a drunken derelict.
- I would like to express my support for General-Senator Aureolis and his legion being dispatched to help deal with banditry in the southern provinces. It is my hope that proposed legislation will not impact his Senatorial rights and abilities.
Senator Alamander Urenahin (Mercator), representing Ordika province

To a statistician, outlying data points are not important, but the general trend is; therefore, I would not foresee any data about individuals being published, rather more averages and grouped data. As a clarification, I propose that the information may not include data pertaining to just one individual or family. This would prevent your fears from being realised, but not prevent averages or grouped data being published.

On the value of items, I would advise that discretion is used on a case by case basis and the value I suggest is just to give a clear legal framework. The idea is that if you receive a gift or have an interest that you, or the party that you received it from, would regard as significant, it should be recorded. If in doubt, I would advise that the item is referred to a member of the Council of High Judges for clarification. So as to prevent this register from being abused, in just the way you describe regarding valuation, I am suggesting that an amendment is made to punish those who are considered to have consistently ignored the register, even though they have many gifts or interests of more than 100 denarii, and have failed to seek advice from official sources.

I support your amendment to the AGA.

The governmental business addendum is there is clarify whether senators on official business, eg as a diplomat or general, should receive a vote by proxy.

---

Changes to bills:
1. FIA clause 3, changed from "Statistics shall be published on the size, wealth and other social and economic data points following a census." to "Statistics, excluding data pertaining to just one individual or family, shall be published on the size, wealth and other social and economic data points following a census."
2. FIA new clause, "Senators in doubt as to the value of their interests are to seek advice from the a High Judge. If they consistently fail to do so, and are shown to hold significant interests (ie above 100 denarii), senators shall face a fine of up to 10,000 denarii and/or expulsion from the senate, dependant on the size of the interests involved."
3.AGA new clause, "The IOC may, with the permission of the Senate of Atlantis, invite athletes from abroad to participate in the Games."

[Riccardo93]

Thank you for your support, Senator Urenahin; my forces will do our best to control the bandits.

These changes to the bills are all prudent and wise, and my support for the bills grow even more.

[Mr. Capiatlist]

((I hate to do this, but my free time is not improving anytime soon - it is only getting worse. Is there anyone with the mod who'd like the save files so they can continue? Otherwise I might have to close this thread.))

[SirkTheMonkey]

((I hate to do this, but my free time is not improving anytime soon - it is only getting worse. Is there anyone with the mod who'd like the save files so they can continue? Otherwise I might have to close this thread.))

((I would volunteer but I fear the pros are outweighed by the cons. Pros: Experience with the mod, free time, modding skills. Cons: Somewhat unreliable, no AAR experience, extremely average player, I'd have to abandon my character [although that would happen anyway if it all fell through].))

[quicksabre]

((I would volunteer but I fear the pros are outweighed by the cons. Pros: Experience with the mod, free time, modding skills. Cons: Somewhat unreliable, no AAR experience, extremely average player, I'd have to abandon my character [although that would happen anyway if it all fell through].))

(( I think the cons are FAR outweighed by the pros (not to mention the fact that you missed one - the AAR won't die!)....... You should do it!!! ))

[Kaioo]

((To be honest, being an average player doesn't matter really, since if you mess up, it just goes with the flow of the AAR-obviously you wouldn't be a chicken and reload if you got us defeated in a war we should have won, and could play into the roleplaying side of things for us in here- i.e. Say the Populares were in power, and then went to war with somebody, and ended up getting beat badly. It could be used to get the Mercators into power as propaganda. Plus this AAR wouldn't die if you took over from Mr. since he's unfortunately incapacitated with real life things.))

[SirkTheMonkey]

((It's been about a week and no one else has stepped forward plus people's arguments have been rather persuasive so I suppose I am volunteering to take over if Mr Capiatlist feels it's in the best interests of the AAR to [at least temporarily] change hands.))

[Mr. Capiatlist]

((It's been about a week and no one else has stepped forward plus people's arguments have been rather persuasive so I suppose I am volunteering to take over if Mr Capiatlist feels it's in the best interests of the AAR to [at least temporarily] change hands.))

((No one has some much as commented so I am going to have to declare a time of death. Sorry everyone and thanks for your attention.))