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Thread: The sad state of affairs

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    s1234567890m, Here is a summary of comments up to the first 13 pages of this thread. I'm only including material that I think is relevant, and I'm probably going to skip anything that I think is redundant or flamey or just stupid. I'll keep looking through the next 40 pages and recommend material for inclusion. Other posters should do the same, and feel free to suggest any changes to s1234567890m.

    Copy and past this for your post:

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    [SIZE=3][COLOR="#D3D3D3"]The following is an attempt to collect relevant comments by Magna Mundi developers, as well as their answers to questions posted on the forumSome of the content has been paraphrased for clarity.[/COLOR][/SIZE]

    [
    QUOTE=ubik;13912223][COLOR="#FFFFFF"]Hi MM fans.
    [...]
    [
    Thegame is on a good normal release stateConsidering the fact that we have one more month of development aheadI don't see a problem with all this. There's nothing sad about Magna Mundi state of affairs.

    Anywaylet me stress that I sent last week my opinion about what should be done with the game given the debt I consider we at UV and me personally have to the communityOf coursethat's up to Paradox to decide what to do.

    Expect at least two new "lets play" until the 15th May. Showing the game working is the best way to dismiss your doubts. :)[/COLOR][/QUOTE]

    [URL="http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?611749-The-sad-state-of-affairs&p=13911946&viewfull=1#post13911946"][COLOR="#FF8C00"][SIZE=3][FONT=Verdana]Q: How did this situation develop?[/FONT][/SIZE][/COLOR][/URL]
    [QUOTE=k_merse;13912030][COLOR="#FFFFFF"]Most of the issues are with multiplayer, which wasn'
    t tested so much simply because of our limited resources (namelytime) and has some nasty bugs indeedSingle player is in far better shape than several Paradox titles were at their release time and with the Day 1 patch it will be even better.
    We still have several options for the gameincluding the beta release and shutting the whole project downso it's up to Paradox which path to chose. As I see they have the following choices:
     - Postpone release (they obviously don'
    t want to do that)
     - 
    Release it as a Beta (it seems that the community supports this idea)
     - 
    Take over the project from here and release later (not the best idea because they would spend a lot of time learning how the mechanics and the modified engine work and only then can they start the bug hunt)
     - 
    Shut down the project (this option in itself has several scenarios which we will talk about only if this option comes true)

    All I can say is that we will work in every minute of our spare time till the decision is made.[/COLOR][/QUOTE]
    [
    QUOTE=ubik;13912223][COLOR="#FFFFFF"]Just to add my voice over Merse hereThe game is playable for 30-40-50 years without CTDs except in multiplayerThe multiplayer part is being addressed and even today was already partly addressed.[/COLOR][/QUOTE]

    [
    URL="http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?611749-The-sad-state-of-affairs/page4&p=13912287#post13912287"][COLOR="#FF8C00"][SIZE=3][FONT=Verdana]Q"The game is playable for 30-40-50 years without CTDs except in multiplayer" What does that meanWill the game really crash every 30-50 years?
    [/
    FONT][/SIZE][/COLOR][/URL]
    [
    QUOTE=k_merse;13912415][COLOR="#FFFFFF"]Let me answer thatIt means that the game runs without CTDs in our 30-50 year test periodsWe don't have the time ATM to run longer test scenarios. But according to my experiences even the game crashes, it loads the last save just fine and you can play on, even through the whole game period

    We know what are the issues of the game. But for example in the last few weeks we focused our resources on the map instead of multiplayer. So the map issues are solved, but Paradox still wants the multiplayer to be fixed. I presume if we fix the multi they would want the map to be fixed...[/COLOR][/QUOTE]

    [URL="http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?611749-The-sad-state-of-affairs/page6&p=13912465#post13912465"][COLOR="#FF8C00"][SIZE=3][FONT=Verdana]Q: You'
    ve only run 50 year tests?[/FONT][/SIZE][/COLOR][/URL]
    [
    QUOTE=k_merse;13912533][COLOR="#FFFFFF"]OhnoOf course we made longer testfull length testshands-off tests too. And the game is fineA CTD may come around in every few decades thoughWhat I meant that lately, as the deadline came closer we didn't have the time to run full-lenght tests, only to test specific systems, or make a limited, 50-70-100 years tests. But it is not even necessary to make longer runs because as all the features are in already (we're mostly hunting bugs and setting up features to WAD). And latelywe did not experience game crashing issues only in about 30-50 years periods. And these issues can mean only a missing } or " in the code and nothing more serious.[/COLOR][/QUOTE]
    [QUOTE=Zolotaya;13913090][COLOR="
    #FFFFFF"]Hello to all the fans of Magna Mundi.

    I am the person that was made "Q/A Manager" for the Magna Mundi project, and after Mattias' announcement in "The Sad State of Affairs" thread, I thought I'd write this to you allFirst I will lay out a few facts that for better or worse play into everything Mattias claims.

    1st FactI have gone through an international team of 20 "testers" from 2009 until todayOnly a total of three have stuck with their commitment and two of the three were pulled away from testing to work on other aspects of the project full-time. (i.eSpanish localization)

    2nd FactI have been testing Magna Mundi builds every day since the project begansometimes for 12hoursSome testing has been hands-off, and other testing has been with various nations world-wideMore on this later.

    3rd FactMembers of the programming team itself have continually run tests to review theirworkSometimes reports from Helius and Ignatich were invaluable to their colleagues in their work.

    4th FactDue to logistical and technical issues within the UV testing team early in 2009Multiplayer aspects of the project were entrusted to Ignatich with the caveat that once these were addressed full multiplayer testing and support would resume.

    In my opinion, as expressed by Ignatich earlierthe game needs a month of polishing upon the final integration of the diplomatic/war systems and mechanics

    One of the hardest aspects of testing during this project was that there were several points in its development that major changes were made (ie renderer) and that simply voided much of the testing done prior to each one.

    The latest builds (we are in the 4500buildare stable enough to run "hands-off" for 50 to 70 yearsAt that pointreloading from the last saved-game point would allow another 50 to 70 years of game-playSpecific aspects of the game are running quite well

    For 
    the most partoutside of multiplayer the "well known" bugs that exist for the past year have been related to systems and mechanics not yet finalizedA few of them are legacy bugs and a few of them are bugs that re-crop up from build to buildafter we think we squash them.

    I have learned a lot from this project, and while there are a couple of things I'd refine and tweak for another, I am happy with the overall results achieved from a testing perspective. It is Paradox'final call on whether to release or in what way to release this titlebut again, as Ignatich believesso do Iit is not ready for release as isbut it is far from the point of deserving cancellation.[/COLOR][/QUOTE]
    [
    QUOTE=Arbus;13913211][COLOR="#FFFFFF"]Hello everyoneI am Arbus and welcome to Magna Mundi

    I want to stand by what k_merse said
    , and also Ignatich, and Ubik, and Zolotaya and husitaThe game is playableIt has bugsit needs balanceit needs polishingbut crashes are quite frankly rare (except for multiplayer). When merse says the game runs for 50 years without crasheshe doesn't mean it crashes on the year 50, he means we have other stuff to do other than to run Magna Mundi for 9 straight hours without loading even once. When we want to test something we go directly to the problem, or we run it for 30-50 years to see the trends. We are waiting for the Paradox report about the latest RC and we'll do everything possible to address those issues.

    Nowcancellation is absurdIt was never directly mentionedso I won't even consider it. There are other alternatives that are much better for all parts involved, Paradox, UV, the fans, and I want to think about those options instead. I talked to ubik about this last week, and we both agree about what would be the most generous proposal of all. I won't say anything more about thisWhatever happens I'll continue to make the gameplay videos, that I never edit for crashes and even talk about existing bugs, and I'll continue to support the game in every way I can.[/COLOR][/QUOTE]

    [
    URL="http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?611749-The-sad-state-of-affairs&p=13913485&viewfull=1#post13913485"][COLOR="#FF8C00"][SIZE=3][FONT=Verdana]Magna Mundi has only had around 20 beta testers since 2009That alone will guarentee lots of bugsWhy did they not open it up for more?[/FONT][/SIZE][/COLOR][/URL]
    [
    QUOTE=k_merse;13913496][COLOR="#FFFFFF"]Because both parties were afraid that some of the Betas may post the build version on a torrent sitethat's why.[/COLOR][/QUOTE]

    [URL="http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?611749-The-sad-state-of-affairs/page7&p=13912568#post13912568"][COLOR="#FF8C00"][SIZE=3][FONT=Verdana]Q: It seems like the only issue is with Magna Mundi'
    s multiplayer instabilityIs Paradox overreacting here?[/FONT][/SIZE][/COLOR][/URL]
    [
    QUOTE=k_merse;13912605][COLOR="#FFFFFF"]The situation is not that simpleParadox has right that they already extended the development time a few timeThey also gave us the Divine Wind renderer for free. And there are still bugs in the gameeven in SPNot CTD bugs but bugs, and they must be fixedSo they have a point when they are impatient.
    But shutting down the game would be a too drastic decision I think.[/COLOR][/QUOTE]

    [
    URL="http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?611749-The-sad-state-of-affairs&p=13912089&viewfull=1#post13912089"][COLOR="#FF8C00"][SIZE=3][FONT=Verdana]QWhy can't you release the game with only a single player mode? Do that many people really play multiplayer in EU-like games?
    [/FONT][/SIZE][/COLOR][/URL]
    [QUOTE=k_merse;13912114][COLOR="#FFFFFF"]That was discussed within the team, but Paradox insisted on having the multiplayer in the first release. I don'
    t know statisticsbut according to themmany people play EU3 in multi.[/COLOR][/QUOTE]

    [
    URL="http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?611749-The-sad-state-of-affairs/page4&p=13912357#post13912357"][COLOR="#FF8C00"][SIZE=3][FONT=Verdana]What about turning to alternative methods of fundinglike kickstarter or a paid beta release?[/FONT][/SIZE][/COLOR][/URL]
    [
    QUOTE=k_merse;13912415][COLOR="#FFFFFF"]That works only for independent projects and MM is a co-production of Paradox and UV.[/COLOR][/QUOTE
    And it should come out looking like this:
    The following is an attempt to collect relevant comments by Magna Mundi developers, as well as their answers to questions posted on the forum. Some of the content has been paraphrased for clarity.

    Quote Originally Posted by ubik View Post
    Hi MM fans.
    [...]
    [The] game is on a good normal release state. Considering the fact that we have one more month of development ahead, I don't see a problem with all this. There's nothing sad about Magna Mundi state of affairs.

    Anyway, let me stress that I sent last week my opinion about what should be done with the game given the debt I consider we at UV and me personally have to the community. Of course, that's up to Paradox to decide what to do.

    Expect at least two new "lets play" until the 15th May. Showing the game working is the best way to dismiss your doubts.
    Q: How did this situation develop?
    Quote Originally Posted by k_merse View Post
    Most of the issues are with multiplayer, which wasn't tested so much simply because of our limited resources (namely: time) and has some nasty bugs indeed. Single player is in far better shape than several Paradox titles were at their release time and with the Day 1 patch it will be even better.
    We still have several options for the game, including the beta release and shutting the whole project down, so it's up to Paradox which path to chose. As I see they have the following choices:
    - Postpone release (they obviously don't want to do that)
    - Release it as a Beta (it seems that the community supports this idea)
    - Take over the project from here and release later (not the best idea because they would spend a lot of time learning how the mechanics and the modified engine work and only then can they start the bug hunt)
    - Shut down the project (this option in itself has several scenarios which we will talk about only if this option comes true)

    All I can say is that we will work in every minute of our spare time till the decision is made.
    Quote Originally Posted by ubik View Post
    Just to add my voice over Merse here. The game is playable for 30-40-50 years without CTDs except in multiplayer. The multiplayer part is being addressed and even today was already partly addressed.
    Q: "The game is playable for 30-40-50 years without CTDs except in multiplayer" What does that mean? Will the game really crash every 30-50 years?

    Quote Originally Posted by k_merse View Post
    Let me answer that: It means that the game runs without CTDs in our 30-50 year test periods. We don't have the time ATM to run longer test scenarios. But according to my experiences even the game crashes, it loads the last save just fine and you can play on, even through the whole game period

    We know what are the issues of the game. But for example in the last few weeks we focused our resources on the map instead of multiplayer. So the map issues are solved, but Paradox still wants the multiplayer to be fixed. I presume if we fix the multi they would want the map to be fixed...
    Q: You've only run 50 year tests?
    Quote Originally Posted by k_merse View Post
    Oh, no! Of course we made longer test, full length tests, hands-off tests too. And the game is fine. A CTD may come around in every few decades though. What I meant that lately, as the deadline came closer we didn't have the time to run full-lenght tests, only to test specific systems, or make a limited, 50-70-100 years tests. But it is not even necessary to make longer runs because as all the features are in already (we're mostly hunting bugs and setting up features to WAD). And lately, we did not experience game crashing issues only in about 30-50 years periods. And these issues can mean only a missing } or " in the code and nothing more serious.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zolotaya View Post
    Hello to all the fans of Magna Mundi.

    I am the person that was made "Q/A Manager" for the Magna Mundi project, and after Mattias' announcement in "The Sad State of Affairs" thread, I thought I'd write this to you all. First I will lay out a few facts that for better or worse play into everything Mattias claims.

    1st Fact: I have gone through an international team of 20 + "testers" from 2009 until today. Only a total of three have stuck with their commitment and two of the three were pulled away from testing to work on other aspects of the project full-time. (i.e. Spanish localization)

    2nd Fact: I have been testing Magna Mundi builds every day since the project began; sometimes for 12+ hours. Some testing has been hands-off, and other testing has been with various nations world-wide. More on this later.

    3rd Fact: Members of the programming team itself have continually run tests to review theirwork. Sometimes reports from Helius and Ignatich were invaluable to their colleagues in their work.

    4th Fact: Due to logistical and technical issues within the UV testing team early in 2009, Multiplayer aspects of the project were entrusted to Ignatich with the caveat that once these were addressed full multiplayer testing and support would resume.

    In my opinion, as expressed by Ignatich earlier, the game needs a month of polishing upon the final integration of the diplomatic/war systems and mechanics.

    One of the hardest aspects of testing during this project was that there were several points in its development that major changes were made (ie renderer) and that simply voided much of the testing done prior to each one.

    The latest builds (we are in the 4500+ build) are stable enough to run "hands-off" for 50 to 70 years. At that point, reloading from the last saved-game point would allow another 50 to 70 years of game-play. Specific aspects of the game are running quite well.

    For the most part, outside of multiplayer - the "well known" bugs that exist for the past year have been related to systems and mechanics not yet finalized. A few of them are legacy bugs and a few of them are bugs that re-crop up from build to build, after we think we squash them.

    I have learned a lot from this project, and while there are a couple of things I'd refine and tweak for another, I am happy with the overall results achieved from a testing perspective. It is Paradox's final call on whether to release or in what way to release this title, but again, as Ignatich believes, so do I: it is not ready for release as is, but it is far from the point of deserving cancellation.
    Quote Originally Posted by Arbus View Post
    Hello everyone, I am Arbus and welcome to Magna Mundi

    I want to stand by what k_merse said, and also Ignatich, and Ubik, and Zolotaya and husita. The game is playable. It has bugs, it needs balance, it needs polishing, but crashes are quite frankly rare (except for multiplayer). When merse says the game runs for 50 years without crashes, he doesn't mean it crashes on the year 50, he means we have other stuff to do other than to run Magna Mundi for 9 straight hours without loading even once. When we want to test something we go directly to the problem, or we run it for 30-50 years to see the trends. We are waiting for the Paradox report about the latest RC and we'll do everything possible to address those issues.

    Now, cancellation is absurd. It was never directly mentioned, so I won't even consider it. There are other alternatives that are much better for all parts involved, Paradox, UV, the fans, and I want to think about those options instead. I talked to ubik about this last week, and we both agree about what would be the most generous proposal of all. I won't say anything more about this. Whatever happens I'll continue to make the gameplay videos, that I never edit for crashes and even talk about existing bugs, and I'll continue to support the game in every way I can.
    Magna Mundi has only had around 20 beta testers since 2009? That alone will guarentee lots of bugs. Why did they not open it up for more?
    Quote Originally Posted by k_merse View Post
    Because both parties were afraid that some of the Betas may post the build version on a torrent site, that's why.
    Q: It seems like the only issue is with Magna Mundi's multiplayer instability. Is Paradox overreacting here?
    Quote Originally Posted by k_merse View Post
    The situation is not that simple. Paradox has right that they already extended the development time a few time. They also gave us the Divine Wind renderer for free. And there are still bugs in the game, even in SP. Not CTD bugs but bugs, and they must be fixed. So they have a point when they are impatient.
    But shutting down the game would be a too drastic decision I think.
    Q: Why can't you release the game with only a single player mode? Do that many people really play multiplayer in EU-like games?

    Quote Originally Posted by k_merse View Post
    That was discussed within the team, but Paradox insisted on having the multiplayer in the first release. I don't know statistics, but according to them, many people play EU3 in multi.
    What about turning to alternative methods of funding, like kickstarter or a paid beta release?
    Quote Originally Posted by k_merse View Post
    That works only for independent projects and MM is a co-production of Paradox and UV.

  2. #1082
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    Wow, I never read my name so many times in one comment...
    But I would like to see the answers from Paradox in the compilation as well, because like that, it shows only the opinion of the developers.

  3. #1083
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    Quote Originally Posted by k_merse View Post
    I don't think he's following this thread...
    who?
    Ignored: Nuril, videonfan, Pandi

  4. #1084
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    Quote Originally Posted by k_merse View Post
    Wow, I never read my name so many times in one comment...
    But I would like to see the answers from Paradox in the compilation as well, because like that, it shows only the opinion of the developers.
    Hah! k_merse, you just had the misfortune of being one of the first responders--you pretty much dominate the first dozen or so pages. Helius has some good comments at around page 20 but I won't have time to suggest updates until after I get some sleep. I'll probably continue with this FAQ project once I get to work in the afternoon.

    Mattias Lilja has been updating the first post with most of the new information he posted to this thread. I will certainly include anything interesting from Paradox if I see it, but they are wisely keeping quiet for the most part

  5. #1085
    Quote Originally Posted by minispace View Post
    I will certainly include anything interesting from Paradox if I see it, but they are wisely keeping quiet for the most part
    Yeah, otherwise this would be the longest thread in MM forum already ...well, it is probably gonna be anyway
    "None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free." - Goethe

  6. #1086
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    Not even close - Questions to the Developers thread is 151 pages long...
    Lose your honour on these forums and I'll make you commit seppuku

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  7. #1087
    Quote Originally Posted by GrafKeks View Post
    What I´d like to ask is if you guys are going to cut out features, or if you´ve been given the time to sort out all bugs. As I´d like to play the MM I´ve seen in the DD´s and Let´s Plays without any cuts to mechanics and features.
    Self-quote for answer, as my question, was apparently overread

  8. #1088
    Aὐτοκράτωρ Konstantinos XV's Avatar
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    The closest to official answer we've got so far is this:
    Quote Originally Posted by Arbus View Post
    Also at this point, removing features is probably harder and more troublesome than fixing what there is.
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  9. #1089
    Thanks, mate.
    But I hope there will be an official statement.

  10. #1090
    Ask how many Divisions I have! InnocentIII's Avatar
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    fwiw I still want you to take my money.
    I follow Paradox on Twitter and have Johan's photo on my phone for Twitter messages. I also follow the Pope. When the Pontiff tweets, I see the picture and lately I wonder "yes, but is Johan speaking ex cathedra?"
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  11. #1091
    Sorry I ask. But what the hell is the release day now then? Is it the 30. June or is it moved a few months again?

  12. #1092
    Captain Clophiroth's Avatar
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    I have just noticed that this game has been removed from Games list in Paradox webpage :S

  13. #1093
    Quote Originally Posted by Clophiroth View Post
    I have just noticed that this game has been removed from Games list in Paradox webpage :S

    Come on Pdox please don´t this is a new kind of EU

  14. #1094
    Field Marshal
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clophiroth View Post
    I have just noticed that this game has been removed from Games list in Paradox webpage :S
    I thought there were rumours that the game's not getting canned?

  15. #1095
    Captain Dragassa's Avatar
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    Looks like the end, the game is no longer in the "games" box art section.

  16. #1096
    Quote Originally Posted by ywhtptgtfo View Post
    I thought there were rumours that the game's not getting canned?
    thought the same.. But the fact it is gone from the upcoming games list, does not mean it is cancelled.. they might just be updating something and choose to take the page down for the game in the meantime?

  17. #1097
    Captain Clophiroth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 4TyStigma View Post
    thought the same.. But the fact it is gone from the upcoming games list, does not mean it is cancelled.. they might just be updating something and choose to take the page down for the game in the meantime?
    Cute, poor optimistic guy

  18. #1098
    the Conqueror Peter Ebbesen's Avatar
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    I swear, this is like seeing people seeking omens in the heavens.

    It might have been canceled, it might have been removed from the upcoming games list because there's no scheduled release date, it might have been temporarily removed to make room for new box art with the new game name: "Magna Mundi: A Sad State of Affairs"... For the love of God, we will be informed in due time
    Finally got around to writing a list of my AARs in the inkwell.
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  19. #1099
    Seriously, if this is true i am going to get a depression. I have checked this forum 5-10 times a day for a half year. This game were more important for me than the release of diablo 3..

  20. #1100
    Quote Originally Posted by peter ebbesen View Post
    i swear, this is like seeing people seeking omens in the heavens.

    It might have been canceled, it might have been removed from the upcoming games list because there's no scheduled release date, it might have been temporarily removed to make room for new box art with the new game name: "magna mundi: A sad state of affairs"... For the love of god, we will be informed in due time :d

    stop looking at the skies

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