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Thread: The sad state of affairs

  1. #1

    The sad state of affairs

    Hi all,

    I wanted to give you an update on the current state of project Magna Mundi. Unfortunately its fate is looking grim. The latest Release Candidate was not at all where it needs to be, far from it.

    We failed the latest Release Candidate due to numerous crashes, and will deliver a more extensive list of bugs to the dev team this week.

    This latest submission follows a string of Release Candidates who were also failed, and the sad fact is we see just as many crashes, bugs and imbalances as we did 6 months ago, some of them brand new and some of them old and well known. This is not a good sign and a terrible sad one as well as it indicates that the development of the game is not happening in a controlled manner. The game was announced in Jan 2010 and the target was a 2011 release. We have reached a point where we no longer can see an end to this, at least not honestly.

    We will see what power the developers can muster to remedy the many holes in the game, but given the recent history of development hopes are not high. It cannot go on like this, and we are at a point where time, money and patience is long gone. Only hard and sad choices remain. Choices we will not make lightly but need to make. We will keep you posted.

    EDIT: I want to clarify a point about the quality of Magna Mundi and previous releases from Paradox:

    Paradox strives to improve in all aspects; technical stability, accessibility and gameplay fun. We have at times fallen short of our goals, but never lost our will to improve. Two wrongs does not make a right; the shortcomings of Magna Mundi does not go away because we have made errors of judgement previously.

    EDIT#2: The communication about Magna Mundi regarding its current status is happening between Paradox Interactive and Universo Virtual. When a decision has been made and we are ready, whatever that decision may be, we will communicate it here. This might take weeks, since some of the choices involved are not ones Paradox would take lightly. Until then we have to refer to the original post in this thread.

    We will leave this thread open unless people in here really want us to close it, but as I mentioned you won’t receive more information from us until a formal decision has been reached.

    Mattias Lilja
    Executive Producer of Magna Mundi
    - Strategy is our game -

  2. #2
    Mwahahahahaha s1234567890m's Avatar
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    Sell as 'Beta'? ie minecraft

    ------
    at the bequest of minispace

    Quote Originally Posted by ubik View Post
    Hi MM fans.
    [...]
    [The] game is on a good normal release state. Considering the fact that we have one more month of development ahead, I don't see a problem with all this. There's nothing sad about Magna Mundi state of affairs.

    Anyway, let me stress that I sent last week my opinion about what should be done with the game given the debt I consider we at UV and me personally have to the community. Of course, that's up to Paradox to decide what to do.

    Expect at least two new "lets play" until the 15th May. Showing the game working is the best way to dismiss your doubts.
    Q: How did this situation develop?
    Quote Originally Posted by k_merse View Post
    Most of the issues are with multiplayer, which wasn't tested so much simply because of our limited resources (namely: time) and has some nasty bugs indeed. Single player is in far better shape than several Paradox titles were at their release time and with the Day 1 patch it will be even better.
    We still have several options for the game, including the beta release and shutting the whole project down, so it's up to Paradox which path to chose. As I see they have the following choices:
    - Postpone release (they obviously don't want to do that)
    - Release it as a Beta (it seems that the community supports this idea)
    - Take over the project from here and release later (not the best idea because they would spend a lot of time learning how the mechanics and the modified engine work and only then can they start the bug hunt)
    - Shut down the project (this option in itself has several scenarios which we will talk about only if this option comes true)

    All I can say is that we will work in every minute of our spare time till the decision is made.
    Quote Originally Posted by ubik View Post
    Just to add my voice over Merse here. The game is playable for 30-40-50 years without CTDs except in multiplayer. The multiplayer part is being addressed and even today was already partly addressed.
    Q: "The game is playable for 30-40-50 years without CTDs except in multiplayer" What does that mean? Will the game really crash every 30-50 years?

    Quote Originally Posted by k_merse View Post
    Let me answer that: It means that the game runs without CTDs in our 30-50 year test periods. We don't have the time ATM to run longer test scenarios. But according to my experiences even the game crashes, it loads the last save just fine and you can play on, even through the whole game period

    We know what are the issues of the game. But for example in the last few weeks we focused our resources on the map instead of multiplayer. So the map issues are solved, but Paradox still wants the multiplayer to be fixed. I presume if we fix the multi they would want the map to be fixed...
    Q: You've only run 50 year tests?
    Quote Originally Posted by k_merse View Post
    Oh, no! Of course we made longer test, full length tests, hands-off tests too. And the game is fine. A CTD may come around in every few decades though. What I meant that lately, as the deadline came closer we didn't have the time to run full-lenght tests, only to test specific systems, or make a limited, 50-70-100 years tests. But it is not even necessary to make longer runs because as all the features are in already (we're mostly hunting bugs and setting up features to WAD). And lately, we did not experience game crashing issues only in about 30-50 years periods. And these issues can mean only a missing } or " in the code and nothing more serious.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zolotaya View Post
    Hello to all the fans of Magna Mundi.

    I am the person that was made "Q/A Manager" for the Magna Mundi project, and after Mattias' announcement in "The Sad State of Affairs" thread, I thought I'd write this to you all. First I will lay out a few facts that for better or worse play into everything Mattias claims.

    1st Fact: I have gone through an international team of 20 + "testers" from 2009 until today. Only a total of three have stuck with their commitment and two of the three were pulled away from testing to work on other aspects of the project full-time. (i.e. Spanish localization)

    2nd Fact: I have been testing Magna Mundi builds every day since the project began; sometimes for 12+ hours. Some testing has been hands-off, and other testing has been with various nations world-wide. More on this later.

    3rd Fact: Members of the programming team itself have continually run tests to review theirwork. Sometimes reports from Helius and Ignatich were invaluable to their colleagues in their work.

    4th Fact: Due to logistical and technical issues within the UV testing team early in 2009, Multiplayer aspects of the project were entrusted to Ignatich with the caveat that once these were addressed full multiplayer testing and support would resume.

    In my opinion, as expressed by Ignatich earlier, the game needs a month of polishing upon the final integration of the diplomatic/war systems and mechanics.

    One of the hardest aspects of testing during this project was that there were several points in its development that major changes were made (ie renderer) and that simply voided much of the testing done prior to each one.

    The latest builds (we are in the 4500+ build) are stable enough to run "hands-off" for 50 to 70 years. At that point, reloading from the last saved-game point would allow another 50 to 70 years of game-play. Specific aspects of the game are running quite well.

    For the most part, outside of multiplayer - the "well known" bugs that exist for the past year have been related to systems and mechanics not yet finalized. A few of them are legacy bugs and a few of them are bugs that re-crop up from build to build, after we think we squash them.

    I have learned a lot from this project, and while there are a couple of things I'd refine and tweak for another, I am happy with the overall results achieved from a testing perspective. It is Paradox's final call on whether to release or in what way to release this title, but again, as Ignatich believes, so do I: it is not ready for release as is, but it is far from the point of deserving cancellation.
    Quote Originally Posted by Arbus View Post
    Hello everyone, I am Arbus and welcome to Magna Mundi

    I want to stand by what k_merse said, and also Ignatich, and Ubik, and Zolotaya and husita. The game is playable. It has bugs, it needs balance, it needs polishing, but crashes are quite frankly rare (except for multiplayer). When merse says the game runs for 50 years without crashes, he doesn't mean it crashes on the year 50, he means we have other stuff to do other than to run Magna Mundi for 9 straight hours without loading even once. When we want to test something we go directly to the problem, or we run it for 30-50 years to see the trends. We are waiting for the Paradox report about the latest RC and we'll do everything possible to address those issues.

    Now, cancellation is absurd. It was never directly mentioned, so I won't even consider it. There are other alternatives that are much better for all parts involved, Paradox, UV, the fans, and I want to think about those options instead. I talked to ubik about this last week, and we both agree about what would be the most generous proposal of all. I won't say anything more about this. Whatever happens I'll continue to make the gameplay videos, that I never edit for crashes and even talk about existing bugs, and I'll continue to support the game in every way I can.
    Magna Mundi has only had around 20 beta testers since 2009? That alone will guarentee lots of bugs. Why did they not open it up for more?
    Quote Originally Posted by k_merse View Post
    Because both parties were afraid that some of the Betas may post the build version on a torrent site, that's why.
    Q: It seems like the only issue is with Magna Mundi's multiplayer instability. Is Paradox overreacting here?
    Quote Originally Posted by k_merse View Post
    The situation is not that simple. Paradox has right that they already extended the development time a few time. They also gave us the Divine Wind renderer for free. And there are still bugs in the game, even in SP. Not CTD bugs but bugs, and they must be fixed. So they have a point when they are impatient.
    But shutting down the game would be a too drastic decision I think.
    Q: Why can't you release the game with only a single player mode? Do that many people really play multiplayer in EU-like games?

    Quote Originally Posted by k_merse View Post
    That was discussed within the team, but Paradox insisted on having the multiplayer in the first release. I don't know statistics, but according to them, many people play EU3 in multi.
    What about turning to alternative methods of funding, like kickstarter or a paid beta release?
    Quote Originally Posted by k_merse View Post
    That works only for independent projects and MM is a co-production of Paradox and UV.
    Last edited by s1234567890m; 12-06-2012 at 11:22.
    Ignored: Nuril, videonfan, Pandi

  3. #3
    Recruit Iced's Avatar
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    Oh boy, didn't see this one coming

  4. #4
    Colonel dskod1's Avatar
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    NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

    This is some sort of joke! I have been waiting for this game for ages. You cannot cancel this.

    agree with the beta comment. I just cannot believe the comment from paradox. I hope the developers may answer to what is going on.
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    It looks like you have to be not just a good moder but a good programmer if you want to launch your own game. Even if it based on the well developed game engine. There is a big difference between "I want" and "I can" and for my experience most of young programmers don't feel the difference. I'm sad to see Ubik and Co is yet another example of my words.

  6. #6
    Beware of the HoG
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    I would certainly pay to beta, and this has worked for other games (Mount and Blade, Minecraft most famously).

    Whether it would work for this one, though, only Paradox knows.
    HG

    You want to live where the suffering is/I want to get out of town/Come on, baby, give me a kiss/Stop writing everything down/Both of us say there are laws to obey/Yeah, but frankly I don't like your tone/You want to change the way I make love/I want to leave it alone
    -Leonard Cohen

  7. #7
    Odd thing.

    I don't really know who to be disappointed with, UV or Paradox. I guess each equally much. Anyway, I hope it's solvable.

  8. #8
    Captain Kluska's Avatar
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    I am so confused.

  9. #9
    Wow, just wow. I wanted to believe that things were going well but it really felt like while the dev team had good intentions but they didn't understand the state of their game very well.
    Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing ever happened.
    Sir Winston Churchill

  10. #10
    Mwahahahahaha s1234567890m's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kluska View Post
    I am so confused.
    Mattas is 'lead something something' so thats why he says we
    as to why they come about and say it, SOTS2, gettysburg etc they are trying something new probably
    Last edited by s1234567890m; 04-06-2012 at 15:53.
    Ignored: Nuril, videonfan, Pandi

  11. #11
    Captain Kluska's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by s1234567890m View Post
    Mattas is 'lead something something' so thats why he says we
    as to why they come about and say it, SWOT2, gettysburg etc they are trying something new probably
    No, I understood the context of Mattias' post.

    It's the fact that, if true and the situation cannot be remedied, why the team were so assured of success?

    Like, take k_merse's latest post regarding MMtG, "It depends. I can assure you that the game has high quality and it's more bugfree than several other Paradox titles were when they were released".

    I mean, of course it's okay for a team to be hopeful of success but that quote show more than hope - it shows confidence in their product - and yet the situation ends up like this?

    I just don't know.

  12. #12
    Colonel dskod1's Avatar
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    If this game gets cancelled at this point I really will be confused. Especially when paradox allows SOTS2 to be released as it was...... virtually unplayable. Yet paradox allowed it to be released and to continue supporting it with a many patches after release. Surely this game is in a better state then SOTS2 was upon release? is so or even if it is at the same state then it would be unfair to cancel this and not release it at all.

    If SOTS2 has thought us all anything its that if they release a game that is in such a state then they should say so before hand.... IE 'this is a BETA and the game is not complete yet' kind of statement on all the game purchase stages. I mean the game should at least be released as a Beta. Let the fans support it with there money and also help offset the amount of money that paradox has put into this.

    Anyways that just my thought.

    Please note this is just a SUGGESTION I do not work in that sector and am no way telling a company what it should do. Just a thought
    "In the Soviet Union, capitalism triumphed over communism. In this country, capitalism triumphed over democracy." - Fran Lebowitz

  13. #13
    Mwahahahahaha s1234567890m's Avatar
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    If this game gets cancelled at this point I really will be confused. Especially when paradox allows SOTS2 to be released as it was...... virtually unplayable. Yet paradox allowed it to be released and to continue supporting it with a many patches after release. Surely this game is in a better state then SOTS2 was upon release? is so or even if it is at the same state then it would be unfair to cancel this and not release it at all.
    Probably because money changed hands, that and there was a pretty big backlash
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  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by dskod1 View Post
    If this game gets cancelled at this point I really will be confused. Especially when paradox allows SOTS2 to be released as it was...... virtually unplayable. Yet paradox allowed it to be released and to continue supporting it with a many patches after release. Surely this game is in a better state then SOTS2 was upon release? is so or even if it is at the same state then it would be unfair to cancel this and not release it at all.

    If SOTS2 has thought us all anything its that if they release a game that is in such a state then they should say so before hand.... IE 'this is a BETA and the game is not complete yet' kind of statement on all the game purchase stages. I mean the game should at least be released as a Beta. Let the fans support it with there money and also help offset the amount of money that paradox has put into this.

    Anyways that just my thought.

    Please note this is just a SUGGESTION I do not work in that sector and am no way telling a company what it should do. Just a thought
    I hope for a solution similar to this one. I would gladly pay, even for a faulty product, if it will be updated.

  15. #15
    Colonel dskod1's Avatar
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    Yes the backlash was big BECAUSE all the buyers had assumed they were buying a completed game. No one was told about the state it was in. Thats what they should avoid "not telling the buyers what state the game is in"
    "In the Soviet Union, capitalism triumphed over communism. In this country, capitalism triumphed over democracy." - Fran Lebowitz

  16. #16
    Field Marshal videonfan's Avatar
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    They do this so we forget about it and the developers can keep the game for themselves and play for hours
    EDITamn me i said that Johan would cancel the game(for fun because a guy was anxious)and now this.Maybe it is true that people born on Saturday bring bad luck?Am i Mitsotakis(a guy who brings really bad luck) Jr.? :P

  17. #17
    On Probation apg's Avatar
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    hmmm something very strange is going on here............. after K_merses recent post displaying his confidence in things, its sad to say but it seems someone must be lying about the state of the game???.....

    It's the fact that, if true and the situation cannot be remedied, why the team were so assured of success?
    yes this has confused me.

    EDIT: i am all for paying for a BETA release and am sure many people are too.

    EDIT: thanks to k_merse for clarification. - you should deffinately release a beta i think and plus who really cares about multiplayer? release the game SOLELY as a single player game without multiplayer and save yourselves unneeded hassle!
    Last edited by apg; 04-06-2012 at 16:37.

  18. #18
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    Most of the issues are with multiplayer, which wasn't tested so much simply because of our limited resources (namely: time) and has some nasty bugs indeed. Single player is in far better shape than several Paradox titles were at their release time and with the Day 1 patch it will be even better.
    We still have several options for the game, including the beta release and shutting the whole project down, so it's up to Paradox which path to chose. As I see they have the following choices:
    - Postpone release (they obviously don't want to do that)
    - Release it as a Beta (it seems that the community supports this idea)
    - Take over the project from here and release later (not the best idea because they would spend a lot of time learning how the mechanics and the modified engine work and only then can they start the bug hunt)
    - Shut down the project (this option in itself has several scenarios which we will talk about only if this option comes true)

    All I can say is that we will work in every minute of our spare time till the decision is made.

  19. #19
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    I would suggest releasing it as a beta, I think the fan support would be large enough to show that the game should be continued, or open it up to pre-order. Most of us are willing to deal with bugs, we are very much supportive of the game. But that is simply my two cents, it is up to paradox.

    Edit: thanks to K_merse. I think the way most of us play is to play single player for a while then go into multiplayer. Maybe you could "lock" or put a warning on the multiplayer and say it is extremely glitchy. That way you would have an excuse to put all your efforts into fixing the multiplayer glitches while getting any other big single player ones that come up. Seriously, I think it would be quite sad to see this game disappear. I would even be willing to kick start the game or pay an initial extra development fee just to see this game out the door. I swear paradox, if you ruin this, I am done with paradox games for a while, no eu4 or whatever
    Last edited by Connor Mulhern; 04-06-2012 at 16:29.

  20. #20
    Hopefully this will solved positively (not shutting it down). Good luck with everything.

    edit: and thanks k_merse for the clarification.

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