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Thread: Persia Changes?

  1. #1
    Sayonara Zetsubou Robusuta
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    Persia Changes?

    The Near East seems to be a region sort of on the 'backburner' right now while a lot of other issues are being addressed but I would like to start a thread on it because there are a lot of inaccuracies and problems.

    First off for culture, Gilan is Persian, not Azeri... sort of. In Gilan the language is Gilaki, a Caspian Iranian laguage, related to Mazandrani. For simplification reasons it should just be made Persian

    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...ution_2004.jpg

    Also as you can see from the map, Kermanshah should be Kurdish. Another thing you will notice on the map is the large Arab population in Ahvaz and indeed during the Safavid and Qajar Dynasties the region know as Khuzestan was known as 'Arabistan' but this is a result of a mass immigration of Shia Banu Kaab tribe from modern day Iraq during the mid 15th century. and the province should stay Persian.

    Currently there is a centre of trade Ku-e-Ormuz to represent the massive trading centre of Bandar Abbas. The problem is that the port of Bandar Abbas was built and named after the Safavid Abbas I. The original centre of trade in Eastern Iran was Hormuz, part of the Qishm province, the centre of trade should be there instead.

    The province of Tadmur, while outside of Persia also needs changing. Tadmur ( or as its better know, the ancient city of Palmyra) ia not in the Tadmur province in MEIOU but would be in the Hims (Homs) province. THe province is more or less analogous to Deir ez-Zor where the dialect spoken is more akin to Iraqi Arabic than anything Levantine and historically this region was part of the Sanjak of Zor, an appendage of the Baghdad Vilayet.

    Another issue is Azeri culture in general

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Azari_language

    historically vast swaths of what we consider the Azeri heartland today such as Tabriz, Maragheh and Zanjan/Soltaniyeh spoke a language until the 1700s derived from Persian until modern Turkish Azeri was adopted making things rather complicated. Most sources call this non-standarized Persian, Pahlavi.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Aza...l_attestations


    Also another issue relating to Azeri is the Tat people

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tat_people_(Caucasus)

    Which are also derived from 'Pahlavi' in Azerbaijan. They formed the majority in Shirvan's capital Shemakha as attested by the Russians after their first census of the region in 1894. Keeping the state culture of Shirvan Azeri but giving them Persian as an accepted culture might also encourage Shirvan to interfere more in Iranian affairs like they historically did.

    I think the best solution is creating a 'Pahlavi' culture in the Persian group that Azeri gets an assimilation bonus against? Or maybe just ignoring the culture completely and just make Shemakha Persian?

    There are some issues I'd also like to bring up in in Persia, Afghanistan and Central Asia but I'll save that for a little later

  2. #2
    Sayonara Zetsubou Robusuta
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    The other issues are just the province names in general, they're haphazard and generally not in the right places, sometimes, in the completely wrong place. Also it sort of touches on a touchy subject. Armenians, a rather touchy debate but one that needs to be addressed. I would like some input and opinions on what to do with the Azeri people since they had such an important impact on Iran, Turkey and the Caucuses. Anyway, here's a rename list tell me what you think

    Herethi to Hereti, Capital: Telavi, culture: Georgian
    Azerbaycan to Savalan, Capital: Ardabil, culture: Azeri
    Aran to Artsakh, Capital: Khachen, culture: Armenian/Azeri
    Syunik, Capital: Kapan, culture: Armenian
    Tabriz to Qarasdag, Capital: Ahar, culture Azeri
    Urmia to Azerbaycan, Capital: Tebriz, culture: Azeri/Pahlavi
    Vaspurakan to Nakhichavan, Capital: Nakhichavan, culture: Armenian
    Maragheh, culture: Azeri/Pahlavi
    Soltaniyeh to Zanjan, Capital: Soltaniyeh, culture: Azeri/Pahlavi
    Rayy to Qazvin, Capital: Qazvin, culture: Persian
    Damghan to Rey, Capital: Rey, culture: Persian
    Sabzevar to Semnan, Capital: Semnan, culture: Persian
    Khorramabad to Lorestan, Capital: Khorramabad, culture: Persian
    Ahvaz to Khuzestan, Capital: Ahvaz, culture: Persian
    Bastaki to Bastak, Capital: Bastak, culture: Persian
    Kuh-e-Ormuz to Hormozgan: Capital: Gamrun, culture: Persian
    Qishm, Capital: Hormoz, culture: Persian
    Keray to Jask, Capital: Bandar-e-Jask, culture: Persian
    Zaranj to Sistan, Capital: Zabol, culture: Pashtun (Sistani is basically Dari)
    Sistan to Quhistan, Capital: Birjand, culture: Persian
    Asterabad to Golestan, Capital: Asterabad, culture: Persian
    Sarakhs to Bojnord, Capital: Bojnord, culture: Persian
    Zahedan to Dasht-e Lut, Capital: Duzdap, culture: Baloch
    Makran to Cha Bahar, Capital: Tis, culture: Baloch
    Kordestan, Qom, Isfahan, Mazandaran, Fars, Yazd, Bam, Kerman, Nishapur and Mashad are fine

    There are still some things that needs to be fixed up with Central Asia but I'll get to that later

  3. #3
    Sayonara Zetsubou Robusuta
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    A problem with Central Asia is that, beyond the Khivan and Bukharan Khanates, after the fall of the Timurids, there was a political vacuum and that is the origins of the Turkmens. There should be a tribal, steppe Turkmen country revolter to represent the powerful but disorganized Turkmen tribes

    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...ntral_Asia.png

    Ust-Yurt, Karakapak and Mangyshlak should be Turkmen. The current Bojnord province should be renamed Chardjui with its capital as Chardjui and should remain Turkmen.

    Khiva was an Uzbek speaking Khanate but the mid 14th century is far earlier than the birth of any sort of Uzbek national consciousness... leaving it 'Turkmen' may be the best way to represent the City before the KHanate but it certainly doesn't help facilitating the province into becoming Uzbek

  4. #4
    F-CEO of EUIV:MEIOU and Taxes gigau's Avatar
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    Thanks for these indications. I'll be moving to Persia soon, when i've "finished" with India.
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  5. #5
    Sayonara Zetsubou Robusuta
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    Quote Originally Posted by gigau View Post
    Thanks for these indications. I'll be moving to Persia soon, when i've "finished" with India.
    Thanks, another large outstanding issue is also Tajiks, Uzbeks, the Timurids and "Kwarezhmi" culture because right now IMO the situation is still rather messy

  6. #6
    F-CEO of EUIV:MEIOU and Taxes gigau's Avatar
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    Before working on cultures, i'd like to see if the map could be improved... although it's going to be tough to add new provinces performance-wise.
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  7. #7
    Sayonara Zetsubou Robusuta
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    Quote Originally Posted by gigau View Post
    Before working on cultures, i'd like to see if the map could be improved... although it's going to be tough to add new provinces performance-wise.
    I agree, I would be hesitant to add more provinces period unless there is an exceptional reason to do so. The game runs pretty damn slow by the 1600s in my games, EUIII not supporting multi-core processors is also a culprit of that though.

    As for new provinces in Persia and the surrounding areas? I don't think there really needs to be any, maybe some province borders redrawn, I'd personally get rid of the Keray/Jask province and use it to create a separate Sabzevar or Tehran province. The only place I think would benefit from an additional province is in Balochistan, splitting the province for Gwadar in two. With a small coastal province called Gwadar and an interior province called Makran. This is to represent the Omani rule of the port of Gwadar which lasted until 1958, and the rest of the province which was native ruled.

    Also another quick correction, for the province of Antep, the capital city should also be just named Antep, the 'Gazi' (which means victorious) was only added to the name of the city in 1921.

    There are a couple of issues also with which provinces should be Kurdish culture as well but I think that, like the Armenian culture situation might be because such a topic could be controversial.

    Also I think when forming Persia, the event should also trigger a change to the Turkish tech group for whoever forms it. Historically the Ottomans and Safavids, Zand and Qajar Persian dynasties where tight rivals with the Ottomans and the Persians won their fair share of wars. Currently the Ottomans just out tech Persia badly, even on the rare occasion that it does form.
    Last edited by Semi-Lobster; 07-06-2012 at 21:41.

  8. #8
    F-CEO of EUIV:MEIOU and Taxes gigau's Avatar
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    Seems all fair. I'll give it a go during the week-end, with any luck.
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  9. #9
    Sayonara Zetsubou Robusuta
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    The next issue to bring up is states, while pretty accurate, is missing the key ingredient to the tumultuous mix of 14th century Persia. The Safaviyya Order, an armed Sufi military order that would go on to form the Safavid Empire and reunify Persia. Unlike other Sufi orders they collected taxes, maintained public infrastructure and armed themselves. As of 1356 they would control Gilan, and their capital would be in Ardabil and led by Sadr al-Din Musa Safavid . The hereditary Sufi/Shia order would be allied with the Jalayirds and have claims on basically all of Azerbaijan and Western Persia.
    Last edited by Semi-Lobster; 08-06-2012 at 16:51.

  10. #10
    Sayonara Zetsubou Robusuta
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    Not Persia related but whats the point of the wasteland Al-Jawf? Couldn't that just be one big wasteland province in northern Arabia? And from what I've read, it shouldn't be wasteland at all in the first place, Sakakah is an oasis town and has been inhabited for thousands of years. I would probably either just use that province for something else or resraw its borders and make it a normal habitable province.

    Also what are your plans for Kurdish provinces? Van has been made Kurdish culture but one can easily argue that Diyar-i-Bekr should also be kurdish, or Mardin, and Al-Hasakah. Or even argue that Mardin and Al-Hasakah should be Shami Oriental Orthodox. It's an odd numbers game with some of these provinces, with inflated and deflated statistics, unreliable censuses, ethnic massacres, modern nationalism etc. On top of that you have to balance overall gameplay as well. I'll try digging around some more.

  11. #11
    F-CEO of EUIV:MEIOU and Taxes gigau's Avatar
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    I'll be working on the area soon enough... give me a few days
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    Sayonara Zetsubou Robusuta
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    Another few things to bring up, mostly about dynasties, starting with is the Hazaraspids.

    First off the problem is the leader, Shams-al-din Pashang who is indeed the correct leader but his dynasty was Hazaraspid, it should be Shams-al-din Pashang Hazaraspid (yes a very long name).

    Next is the issue of what they controlled. During the reign of Rokn-al-din Yusuf Shah II the cities of Ahvaz and Basra were captured and remained so until the entire dynasty was deposed by the Timurids in the early 15th century.

    The next issue is the Injuids, the problem being.... they don't exist! And for good reason, because the Mongol Injuids ceased to exist a year after the game starts and having them a mongol dynasty that last a year taking a tag is ridiculous. The problem though was that they were involved in a messy war (that they started) against the Muzaffarids. First off the Muzaffarids didn't really have an established capital but the closest thing to a capital they did have was Yazd. Secondly as of 1356 the Injuids still controlled Esfahan and Shiraz (Fars). I think the best solution would be the Papal States situation in 1356 and have a rebel army led by Shaikh Abu Ishaq Injuid that control Esfahan and Shiraz. The best way to present this is as a decently sized pretender army in Esfahan, so if the Muzaffarids screw up badly then the Injuids (both dynasties were mongols) become the new ruling dynasty.

    The last issue I'll mention for now is the Jalayirids, right now they're Sunni. The dynasty was actually Shia.
    Last edited by Semi-Lobster; 11-06-2012 at 15:25.

  13. #13
    F-CEO of EUIV:MEIOU and Taxes gigau's Avatar
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    Interesting informations, again.

    Here's a map for Persia. Any suggestion is welcome, although i'd love not to add any provinces... Okay, maybe a couple...


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    There is no map !

  15. #15
    F-CEO of EUIV:MEIOU and Taxes gigau's Avatar
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    Yes there is. Click on "show spoiler".
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  16. #16
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  17. #17
    https://0a1043e8-a-62cb3a1a-s-sites....enshots/Persia - 1356.png

    Copy and paste it into the browser if you have to, but it's there. In any case, I like it.

  18. #18
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    Yeah that looks really good, now might not get eaten in the first 4 months of the game
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  19. #19
    Sayonara Zetsubou Robusuta
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    Great looking map gigau, you even added some things I forgot to mention in the PM like splitting Khorramabad and creating an Illam province. But what's the OPM in Ahvaz?

    I REALLY do insist though on a Safaviyya Military Order state in Ardabil and Gilan though, they are obviously a VERY integral part of the formation of Persia.

    Another thing to point out is that at the start of the game the Jalayirids and the Chupanids (Sulduz) were at war with the Chupanids getting the worst of it, the Chupanids should start off with very bad stability as the Chupanids were incredibly unpopular.

    The Hazaraspids were Sunni not Shia.

    Eretna also should not have a Turkish state culture, the Eretna unlike the other Anatolian beyliks, were a post Illkhanate and not a descendant of the Oghuz Sultanate of Rum and should be Mongol. This should also help the historical deterioration of the state by the rebellious Black Sheep Turks.

    Another state that would be good to add are the Shia Baduspanids of Mazandaran who also controlled Qazvin and Semnan and who were very often at war with the Sarbadars and existed until being annexed by the Safavids. The country could simply be called 'Mazandaran' which should start off with the ruler Jalal-al-Dawla Eskandar Baduspanid with low centralization

    http://www.iranicaonline.org/article...itle-of-ostand

    Lastly what is that two province country in the Gulf of Hormuz? To represent the autonomous Shabankara city states?
    Last edited by Semi-Lobster; 12-06-2012 at 06:24.

  20. #20
    Field Marshal Trin Tragula's Avatar
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    Do I spot my hand in some of that Gigau? If so I think you should have a look at the next version of my map (hopefully I'll upload a newer version of my mod soon, got held up by illness) as that area had some problems before. Especially the eastern parts.

    New eastern Persian screenshot:




    I hope you don't mind that I follow this thread as there's some very interesting discussion going on
    My mods:
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