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You weren't on the byzantine death list. No need. We had a seer scan on you telling us you weren't a wolf :p

From hdk's post, i thought the Byzantine's wanted me dead...

By who was i scanned ? If by a goodie, why wasn't i contacted ? :unsure:


But ..what traits were those, exactly?

Witness... used it on the last Fatimid hunt night, but there was no hunt. Dice let me keep it... and used it again but was too late.

Plus i was second in command, so at the end, i was leader.
 


From hdk's post, i thought the Byzantine's wanted me dead...

By who was i scanned ? If by a goodie, why wasn't i contacted ? :unsure:

In big you can't trust a scanned player. Case in point: randakar :D
 
You want to know? Several reasons come to mind:
1) I hate powerful JL's. They literally ruin the game for every villager that's not in them. Since I always complain when I'm a villager, it would be hypocritical of me to do that very thing as the priest.
2) The village was going fine without our co-operation. Very fine indeed. We had got several baddies killed and more were in the pipeline even without any further seer scans. This game was perfect for vote analysis but nobody really tried it AFAIK, except for wolves who done some token analysis that, if anybody had cared to closely scrutinise, would have been shown to have several inconsistencies. I'm pretty confident I could've got a couple more obvious wolves lynched just by looking at the votes, so could anyone else who might've been bothered. I inevitably got hunted and so couldn't do that, but once I die it's no longer a concern of mine.
3) Johho was not cleared. Remotely. He was unlikely to be a baddie, but easily possible. No reason for me to potentially throw away my life when, at the time, the village looked favourites to win. If the village was in dire straits, then I would've, but no we were going better than fine at this stage.
4) I did get in contact with you a couple of days afterwards anyway, by which stage the village was still doing great.
5) You clearly had already people in the JL that you chose to trust. If there's a tight knit JL I understand the wisdom in double scanning someone to absolutely clear them (although they can and sometimes are turned on the very same night anyway), but you had given away your role to two unscanned people and so there was no reason to actually co-ordinate our scans in that way. I still do not why you told randy you were the seer...even if he was good, why was there any reason to tell him? Couldn't you have said you were part of the JL or something? Maybe an SA villager?

And no, you still weren't right to trust randy, even if he turned out to be a goodie at the time. In the same way that it's not a good idea for a small child to accept a lift from a stranger, even if they are in fact just being helpful. The point is it's an unnecesary risk - You had no need to trust him! You only need people in contact whenever you have wolves to out, and even if you have one wolf that can wait a while.

EDIT: Wait...

WHYYY?!!! Heck, even if randakar had been doulbe-scanned I still wouldn't have done that.


However, it was very unlikely for you to scan Taklagarn that night, I grant you. However it may not have done any worse. At least as your apprentice you knew him, whereas if he became the priest after I died, you two could only have got in touch through the unscanned wolf randakar.


@reis91: Yeah that was taking the piss. I did assume you knew I was the priest, not because of the SA claim, but because you outed yourself after I applied some small pressure (I did suspect you before you were scanned). The fact is, as an active goodie I just don't survive werewolf games no matter my role.


@the_hdk: I didn't read the rules and actually did assume apprentices could be re-took, but after reading them it's fairly clear that it shouldn't have happened.

In big you can't trust a scanned player. Case in point: randakar :D

Ahhhh... but this then becomes the problem: If a seer scans a wolf, how to out them without saying anything to anyone?

At some point, you have to put yourself out there and trust SOMEONE. Even if you can come up with a cock and bull story of "Hey, I am JL, and I need you to out someone, you have been partially cleared but not completely, blah blah blah" you are at least telling someone you are JL.

Every game is a gamble in the early stages of JL formation, and a cultist in the right place can destroy it early. But without going forth, you will gain nothing.

My very first seer role was Arch Mede's gambling Big game. My first scan was Slinky. I didn't contact him because I wanted to find a wolf first, and fortunately for me, he was hunted and proved a cultist.

That all being said, Marty is correct about giving too much info away... Do not tell someone completely trustworthy that there are apprentices, and their names, and all that other good info.
 


From hdk's post, i thought the Byzantine's wanted me dead...

By who was i scanned ? If by a goodie, why wasn't i contacted ? :unsure:

Falc. And you weren't contacted for the same reason TAM wasn't contacted: A seer only scans for wolves, not cultists or sorcerers. If you were either, he'd just have given the wolves his name.


Witness... used it on the last Fatimid hunt night, but there was no hunt. Dice let me keep it... and used it again but was too late.

Plus i was second in command, so at the end, i was leader.

Yeah, Steed was the blessed apprentice, HC the cursed one. And since EL knew all the names of the apprentices (through reis from me) he set his hunt on steed, the Seer's apprentice.
It helps a bit knowing that GM's like to distribute blesses and curses in a certain way :p
As for being second in command - I was wondering where that one had gone off to. If you had used that to target, say, tamius, on the last day, we'd have had a tad of a problem on our hands..

Nevertheless, you place the minimum of trust possible for the goal you want to achieve.

I sometimes break that rule :p
(Not something I recommend though. Really.)
 
All rules are meant to be broken.

.. but if you don't haven't thought about the how and why carefully, you probably shouldn't :p
 
.. but if you don't haven't thought about the how and why carefully, you probably shouldn't :p
Wait, what? I think I haven't done nothing to neither how and not why, but maybe where. :confused:
 
.
As for being second in command - I was wondering where that one had gone off to. If you had used that to target, say, tamius, on the last day, we'd have had a tad of a problem on our hands..

If E-L had used his brutal properly (i.e. in his interest, not yours) too, it could have been a goodie victory. If he died that night it had to be because you betrayed him and obvious turned wolf was even more obvious in the thread than Hearth. Even if all your followers turned out to save him he could still be leader lynched.

I don't think it was reasonable to use the leader lynch at that point unless you knew what the Apprentice rule really was. If you knew what the apprentice rule was, it was a finely balanced choice, and if you knew that the Apprentices knew they were turnable it was a no-brainer. I think I already said I am pissed that the GM withheld the knowledge of the Apprentice rule from me while telling a lot of others what it really was.

The brutal rule has to go too. Like I already said, if E-L had used it in his interests rather than yours, he could have made it impossible for you to win the game and if you had tried to argue him out of it, it would merely have demonstrated that you were a baddie committed to the Byz rather than a sorcerer who intended to win with him. There has to be a way to kill a brutal without the brutal firing. Every power should have its counter somewhere in the game and that brutal rule didn't. Same with Rendap. If he had used it in his interests rather than yours, you couldn't have had him sacrificed.

And you weren't contacted for the same reason TAM wasn't contacted: A seer only scans for wolves, not cultists or sorcerers. If you were either, he'd just have given the wolves his name.

We weren't contacted because you were certain we were goodies, and you didn't want to risk us spotting you were duping the Seer.

If the Seer wasn't your dupe, we would have been contacted something along the lines of "The JL wants you to do xxx today", not "Hi I'm the Seer. Please have me eaten and put out of my misery if you are a cultist because all those baddies I'm already talking to won't".

By the last couple of days the Seer has a far better idea of whether we were good than whether you were. You are far more likely to be a baddie than we are and he should be taking out insurance against that possibility with someone he has scanned recently. You are an obvious hunt target. You are still alive. There have been lots of no kills. The more unexplained no kills there have been since a scan, the less trustworthy a scan is. He should have been paranoid about you as well as the apprentices.

Its an argument against contacting johho on day 2, and its a baddie tell if you were using it to the Seer on Day 6/7/8.
 
I was a bit paranoid but not enough, it turns out.

Yes, I wondered about reis who wasn't Spiritually Attuned as he claimed to be yet still managed to find the Priest. Then again, it would seem that marty blew his own cover on that one, no?

And my scan for that last night was actually EL first, Randakar as backup.

*shrug* I trusted two people in this game. With johho I was right, with randy I wasn't, but only because he was Cursed and got hunted. The odds beat me, basically.
 
Only when they don't mind the abnormally high death danger inherent to the role. Still, I was lucky that EL never requested me to be formally attached, nor took action to get rid of me to gain credibility.

Never had to, you already were attached to our pack, as per the rules at the start that the GM confirmed. Did you not know that?

Wolf PM said:
Welcome Fatamid Pack,

You are a wolf pack. I pmed all 3 of you in one pm as im lazy.
You start hunting right away. so 1st night, 3rd night, 5th night etc.
You know the drill.

The pack:
Eternaly_Lost
Suirantes
telesien

2 people have special stuff. Eternaly_Lost is *brutal*. and telesien is cultist manager. so your 2 cultist know his name at game start. they do now know the name of teh other 2 pack members.
your cultists are:
Najs and reis91

Cultist: Works with the Werewolves, and wins if the Werewolves win. If attached, the cultist learns the identity of a Werewolf master at game start and that Werewolf knows the cultist's identity in turn. Cultists may attach themselves and become members of a Pack if both they and a member of that pack send a PM to the Game Moderator requesting to do so. Such a PM may not be revoked. Can both start attached and unattached.
 
If E-L had used his brutal properly (i.e. in his interest, not yours) too, it could have been a goodie victory. If he died that night it had to be because you betrayed him and obvious turned wolf was even more obvious in the thread than Hearth. Even if all your followers turned out to save him he could still be leader lynched.

That was one of my primary fears, in fact. I gambled on EL thinking I might still be a cultist or sorcerer to pull us through that.
But seriously though, it wouldn't have helped - there were 15 people alive at the end, and 8 of those were baddies on my team. We had parity even without me.

And of course I could also have chosen my hunt a bit more carefully - I knew esemesas had to be blessed due to the other dead hunters not having been blessed, so I should have hunted someone else, like Sedracus or JL.

I don't think it was reasonable to use the leader lynch at that point unless you knew what the Apprentice rule really was. If you knew what the apprentice rule was, it was a finely balanced choice, and if you knew that the Apprentices knew they were turnable it was a no-brainer. I think I already said I am pissed that the GM withheld the knowledge of the Apprentice rule from me while telling a lot of others what it really was.

Agreed.

The brutal rule has to go too. Like I already said, if E-L had used it in his interests rather than yours, he could have made it impossible for you to win the game and if you had tried to argue him out of it, it would merely have demonstrated that you were a baddie committed to the Byz rather than a sorcerer who intended to win with him.

He could have done that, but he didn't have the information to make that decision with any degree of certainty. If he'd tried to poke me a bit by PM he might have gotten that out of me somehow, but he didn't.


There has to be a way to kill a brutal without the brutal firing. Every power should have its counter somewhere in the game and that brutal rule didn't. Same with Rendap. If he had used it in his interests rather than yours, you couldn't have had him sacrificed.

I had to kill him one way or another. If I hadn't shot him he'd probably have used it on me the next day when I tried to get him lyched. Which was also a lot more obvious.

We weren't contacted because you were certain we were goodies, and you didn't want to risk us spotting you were duping the Seer.

I wouldn't have contacted you even if I was good, though. Not without a priest scan on you as well.

If the Seer wasn't your dupe, we would have been contacted something along the lines of "The JL wants you to do xxx today", not "Hi I'm the Seer. Please have me eaten and put out of my misery if you are a cultist because all those baddies I'm already talking to won't".

By the last couple of days the Seer has a far better idea of whether we were good than whether you were. You are far more likely to be a baddie than we are and he should be taking out insurance against that possibility with someone he has scanned recently. You are an obvious hunt target. You are still alive. There have been lots of no kills. The more unexplained no kills there have been since a scan, the less trustworthy a scan is. He should have been paranoid about you as well as the apprentices.

Its an argument against contacting johho on day 2, and its a baddie tell if you were using it to the Seer on Day 6/7/8.

I wasn't. I didn't talk a lot to Falc at all, really. A bit of analysis, which was very much for my own sake as well as I was trying to figure out who the last Fatamid was ;p
But this subject didn't come up.

Only when they don't mind the abnormally high death danger inherent to the role. Still, I was lucky that EL never requested me to be formally attached, nor took action to get rid of me to gain credibility.

That's a funny thing. I thought Boris and Jens were attached, since the pack PM I got basically said so, like EL's did. But during the last day the_hdk suddenly notified me that they still had to be formally attached.
Had I known that earlier (and reading the rules regarding this would have helped, I'd say :p) I'd have asked Boris and Jens/slinky to formally attach themselves sooner. Now there was this last-second mad scramble to get them to do so.
 
I was a bit paranoid but not enough, it turns out.

Yes, I wondered about reis who wasn't Spiritually Attuned as he claimed to be yet still managed to find the Priest. Then again, it would seem that marty blew his own cover on that one, no?

And my scan for that last night was actually EL first, Randakar as backup.

*shrug* I trusted two people in this game. With johho I was right, with randy I wasn't, but only because he was Cursed and got hunted. The odds beat me, basically.

The odds were massively stacked against you. That wasn't something unlucky but something virtually certain. Its pretty difficult to convince someone you are a scanner for several days if you don't actually have access to the scans. Sooner or later your bluff gets exposed, either by the update or something the real scanner does. Randakar went off to look for the baddies pretending to be a sorcerer. He is almost certain to either be the sorcerer, or someone acting for the sorcerer, or to get hunted. You don't tell him everything. You tell him things that it won't matter too much if they get passed on to the opposition and you assume they have been passed on. The longer he stays alive the surer you become he was either a baddie all along or has been turned. You have to play along with him, keep yourself and your side alive, give him a chance to overreach and hope he takes it, and then pounce. You still probably lose once the Apprentice setup is known, but Randakar did overreach and give you a chance because he setup and sacrificed so many of his own side in order to improve his credibility. Randakar was actually a lot more effective at killing wolves after he was turned than before.

I "trusted", 3 people when I was Seer. 1 was the Sorcerer, one was turnable and knew it, and one was a claimed (and unturnable by scanner) apprentice. You have to play to put yourself in with a chance even when the people you "trust" are baddies.
 
You still probably lose once the Apprentice setup is known, but Randakar did overreach and give you a chance because he setup and sacrificed so many of his own side in order to improve his credibility. Randakar was actually a lot more effective at killing wolves after he was turned than before.

Not really. If I hadn't been turned I'd have either told him to scan Yakman and rendap, or gone after them both in the thread hard. Sure, I still did that with Rendap, but that was purely because of the setup with the apprentices and me knowing Marty's role and who he was going to turn to his side (if he was going to turn anyone). We had a chance to kill the priest role entirely and we had to take it to make the tug-of-war for apprentices winnable.
And as for Hearth .. He did that to himself. Hearth was going to get lynched no matter what else happened at that stage, it was just a matter of time.
 
He could have done that, but he didn't have the information to make that decision with any degree of certainty. If he'd tried to poke me a bit by PM he might have gotten that out of me somehow, but he didn't.

He didn't need to be certain what you were, he needed you to be certain that you would be brutalised, because that forces you to be on his side if you are the sorcerer. If you are something else it doesn't make any difference to him, but it makes the difference between winning and losing if you are someone that can switch between packs.

I had to kill him one way or another. If I hadn't shot him he'd probably have used it on me the next day when I tried to get him lyched. Which was also a lot more obvious.

You knew that. He didn't. Telling you that you are a nasty treacherous sorcerer :p and he doesn't trust you any further than he can brutalise you is a one way bet for him. He's committed to you being the sorcerer and the only insurance he has that you sell out the other pack rather than him is your fear of brutalisation.

Its a bad rule. Just because the people who had it didn't use it effectively doesn't mean that it wouldn't have been horribly unbalancing in other hands.

I wouldn't have contacted you even if I was good, though. Not without a priest scan on you as well.

If you were good you wouldn't have contacted me because, amongst other reasons, you would have been dead.

Falc didn't need to contact me, but he did need to contact someone else. He was short on options and needed to acquire some. Who can he in general read the best? Who is giving the strongest vibes in this game? What is the latest scan evidence? Who has the greatest potential for useful insight? Who isn't about to be hunted? None of it is certain (save a scanned wolf is a scanned wolf) but weigh your options and lay your plan. That might have pointed to me or it might have pointed to someone else but he needed to trust someone else more, so he wasn't so reliant on you. Betting the game on the allegiance of someone that should be dead if they were good isn't a good bet.

That's a funny thing. I thought Boris and Jens were attached, since the pack PM I got basically said so, like EL's did. But during the last day the_hdk suddenly notified me that they still had to be formally attached.
Had I known that earlier (and reading the rules regarding this would have helped, I'd say :p) I'd have asked Boris and Jens/slinky to formally attach themselves sooner. Now there was this last-second mad scramble to get them to do so.

You were better off not reading them. That way you don't get upset at the end of the game when you find out the GM has conned you.

Not really. If I hadn't been turned I'd have either told him to scan Yakman and rendap, or gone after them both in the thread hard.
As a ghost? Really? Who dies first, the pack with the hunt order in on you, or the pack if you go after them when you are not turned?

And as for Hearth .. He did that to himself. Hearth was going to get lynched no matter what else happened at that stage, it was just a matter of time.

You were going to die sooner or later. It was just a matter of time. Parity is going to come sooner or later. It was just a matter of time and not very much time at all by then.

It wasn't that Hearth had to die before parity, it was that Hearth had to die before you even at the cost of giving a tiny extra chance to the goodies and Fatimids.