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Thread: The English Civil War

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    The English Civil War

    Would scenarios like the English Civil War be possible under the generic faction mechanics, and what benefits are associated with favouring the nobility and the lower class?

  2. #2
    MM Prime Minister in Exile Vishaing's Avatar
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    Would scenarios like the English Civil War be possible under the generic faction mechanics,
    MwuahaBwahahahahHAHAHAHAHAHHAHahahahahahahaaaaaa...........Yes.

    To answer the actual question in more detail, each faction has different play styles and goals, both in terms of what they will try to do and what they will want you to do, and in what they will help you do. If two nations that are identical in all ways save faction setup go to war, expect the one with a stronger and happier military faction to do better on the field. Thus an Austria with a greater focus on Nobility and Religious Factions can get their nose bloodied by a vastly smaller Prussia who has a huge Military Faction. Of course NIs and Policy Sliders (plus some luck and intelligent planning) can help mitigate these factors.

    And yes, you can get massive Civil Wars. Each Civil War will have a specific goal, although it is possible for Civil Wars to Escalate.

    Likewise, Factions will respond to the current situation to decide what to pursue, if overall the country has been good to them but the current ruler is pissing them off, they will most likely just try to limit his power or get rid of him, but they'll probably keep the country pretty much the way it is (except with them having more power, of course).

    Factions will also react to other Faction's goals, if the Traders are on the war-path trying to change an Elective Monarchy into a Merchant Republic, expect the Nobles, even the ones who hate you, to offer to put aside their differences as Each Faction has an 'Ideal' Government, and Elective Monarchy is that government for the Nobility in the early game (it shifts to Constitutional Monarchy once available). Likewise, although Factions can pursue foreign support, they may also rally against you in the face of foreign aggression (especially if the country is a rival, a threat, or has a different faction setup).

    Also Note that there is nothing stopping you from experiencing a 'Chain' of Civil Wars if you remain at low stability for too long and have really angry Factions. So it is possible for the Merchants (with some Commoner Support in some provinces) to rise up to try to setup a Republic, and then have the Military come in and establish a Protectorate to 'Restore Order' before having the Nobles come back in with foreign support to reestablish a Monarchy, albeit a Constitutional One.
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    I loved that first line to that reply. It made me laugh so hard Vishaing
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    So the English Civil War would basically be a merchant faction rebellion against an absolute monarchy?

    'Course they ended up with a military junta ruling in the name of a tiny minority of religious fanatics with higher taxes than the King could ever have dreamt of raising but

    If a civil war does break out, by the way, is it random or does it have some bearing on that faction's power base? (To continue the example of the ECW the country fell apart pretty much as you would expect with Parliament taking most of England's commercial base and marginal areas generally remaining loyal to the King.)

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  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by spitss View Post
    Would scenarios like the English Civil War be possible
    Now which one of about 10 or so of them did you have in mind?
    Quote Originally Posted by Vishaing View Post
    Likewise, although Factions can pursue foreign support, they may also rally against you in the face of foreign aggression (especially if the country is a rival, a threat, or has a different faction setup).
    You wanted to say "rally FOR you", right?

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Yeekim View Post
    ... You wanted to say "rally FOR you", right?
    Some factions may rally for you, others may rally against you.

    In one case, I had the military and clergy rally for me and the commoners, traders and nobles rally against me. It was a messy civil war.

  7. #7
    What about a War of the Roses type scenario? Is that achievable with the game mechanics?
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  8. #8
    I thought the war of roses would just be a noblity rebellion with very limited involvment of other factions.

  9. #9
    MM Prime Minister in Exile Vishaing's Avatar
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    It is possible for members of a single faction to wind up on opposing sides of a Civil War, and this is especially possible when the faction is powerful, as large and powerful political factions have a tendency to fracture. The War of the Roses would be best approximated as a Noble Uprising with the 'Change Ruler' goal, while some other parts of the Nobility supported the current Ruler.

    And Civil Wars are not Random, the Factions will always take into account the current situation when deciding when to start one. If you are at max stability with a 9,9,9,9 God-Sun-King at the Helm, it is most likely the Factions won't dare to rise up, even if they are really really angry. This can lead to fun situations where it Looks like everything is harmonious and peaceful and everyone loves you, when in reality they're seething under the surface, just waiting for their chance to strike.

    Likewise, it is possible that a Civil War that wins despite not actually having much in the way of Support can create a Regime that promptly collapses because they have marginalized the real power-base of the country in question. This is especially true if the Rebels take the Capital, which might win the Civil War for them right then and there, and which can also see them radicalize and impose harsher penalties than they originally planned. It is possible for the Merchants to rise up just wanting to secure their power, take the Capital, then get drunk on the dark side when they capture the King and execute the poor guy, set up a Merchant Republic, only for the Military to come in and setup a Protectorate in a second Civil War caused by prolonged Low Stability, until finally the Nobles, having been marginalized in these two wars, rise up in a third to restore the Monarchy. This may not be exactly what happened in the English Civil War, my knowledge of that specific event is lacking I'll admit, however its pretty close from what I know. And that's what we want. We don't want to recreate History, so it is more than possible that England won't suffer any Civil Wars at all. It's not likely, but it's possible.

    Of course, even the Factions can mis-read the situation, and think they have an advantage, rising up only to be crushed. The Factions, like the Player, can make mistakes. This actual hard requirements for a Civil War are very very lax, essentially, you just need to have one faction contributing just the smallest bit to The Opposition. The rest of the decision making process on when to rise up is based on other factors making this more or less likely. This situation is very unlikely, more often, if you experience a Civil War, it will be one of those massive Cluster-Craps like Zolotaya described.

    And then France will invade.
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  10. #10
    This sounds really cool =D,
    but back to my old question, what is the benefits of favouring the nobility and the commoners in the faction screen over the other factions?

    Military = various military bonuses
    Religion = lower missionary costs
    Traders = low merchant costs, higher compete chance
    Commoners = ?
    Nobility = Tax bonus ?

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by spitss View Post
    Commoners = ?
    Maybe less stability costs?

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by spitss View Post

    Nobility = Tax bonus ?
    Most likely not, usually (at least in Europe) the nobility didn't pay much in taxes, if at all. Probably at least some diplomatic bonuses.

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    Maybe, also prestige?

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    I would imagine that, especially later on in the game, having The Commoners on your side could be helpful. Huge mobs of angry, oppressed people with muskets on YOUR side is always nice. Point at the enemy and say "They did it!".

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    Quote Originally Posted by Deathknight15 View Post
    I would imagine that, especially later on in the game, having The Commoners on your side could be helpful. Huge mobs of angry, oppressed people with muskets on YOUR side is always nice. Point at the enemy and say "They did it!".


    You have given me a idea... As liberalism and conservatism are in in the game, it would ge cool to include socialism, specially in extended timeline mods XD

  16. #16
    MM Prime Minister in Exile Vishaing's Avatar
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    Adding in Socialism wouldn't be too hard, its just adding a new variable (8 new variables really) really and accounting for that variable, however it wold require a pretty massive overhaul of the on_actions that populate the houses of the Assembly, but it is doable.

    Okay, as for what each faction does;

    Nobility give you more diplomats, officials, increase your global manpower, and the biggest thing, if they control the province, they reduce that Administrative Need.

    Religious lower stability costs and revolt risk in provinces they control (plus helping missionaries, obviously).

    Traders increase trade efficiency, and on the local level also decrease colonist cost and ship construction time. They also give you some added Spy Efficiency as their sneaky little buggers.

    Military increase discipline, force limits, lower local recruitment time, and increase tradition so you can get better generals.

    Commoners increase production efficiency and spy defense, plus they lower local revolt risk. They are also THE ONLY faction that comes with a global tax income increase and who decrease global revolt risk. Creating a 'People Republic' early could be a viable strategy.

    One of the benefits of the Commoners is that all provinces have a local power faction, and those local powers can side for or against you. Only one of each faction can be in control of each province, however the Commoners are everywhere. It is possible for the Nobility to take control of a province, go hostile, force the commoners to go along, and then when a civil war breaks out and you come in with your armies, the people might rise up in support of you.

    Of course the opposite can also happen, it is possible allied nobles force the people to cooperate, making your country look like the people like you, when a civil war comes along, and suddenly half of the provinces you thought were on your side are suddenly rioting against you.

    It is also possible that your stupid nobles force the commoners to cooperate when they could have just asked, and then the people start hating you only because of that.

    Of course, the biggest advantage to favoring the commoners is simply that they cannot start a Civil War, instead, that means they get the Peasant's War and the later Revolution system for them. Meaning it is, as is pretty much everything in the game, potentially a double edged sword, as Civil Wars can be fairly forgiving, with limited goals.

    Revolutions are not.
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  17. #17
    This sounds absurdly awesome. Nicely done!

  18. #18
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    I'm interested in seeing what happens if you blatantly ignore all except one faction, the whole system sounds fascinating! I can't wait.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vishaing View Post

    And then France will invade.
    Isint it usually the other way around =P http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hundred...%E2%80%931453)

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Vishaing View Post
    MwuahaBwahahahahHAHAHAHAHAHHAHahahahahahahaaaaaa...........Yes.

    To answer the actual question in more detail, each faction has different play styles and goals, both in terms of what they will try to do and what they will want you to do, and in what they will help you do. If two nations that are identical in all ways save faction setup go to war, expect the one with a stronger and happier military faction to do better on the field. Thus an Austria with a greater focus on Nobility and Religious Factions can get their nose bloodied by a vastly smaller Prussia who has a huge Military Faction. Of course NIs and Policy Sliders (plus some luck and intelligent planning) can help mitigate these factors.

    And yes, you can get massive Civil Wars. Each Civil War will have a specific goal, although it is possible for Civil Wars to Escalate.

    Likewise, Factions will respond to the current situation to decide what to pursue, if overall the country has been good to them but the current ruler is pissing them off, they will most likely just try to limit his power or get rid of him, but they'll probably keep the country pretty much the way it is (except with them having more power, of course).

    Factions will also react to other Faction's goals, if the Traders are on the war-path trying to change an Elective Monarchy into a Merchant Republic, expect the Nobles, even the ones who hate you, to offer to put aside their differences as Each Faction has an 'Ideal' Government, and Elective Monarchy is that government for the Nobility in the early game (it shifts to Constitutional Monarchy once available). Likewise, although Factions can pursue foreign support, they may also rally against you in the face of foreign aggression (especially if the country is a rival, a threat, or has a different faction setup).

    Also Note that there is nothing stopping you from experiencing a 'Chain' of Civil Wars if you remain at low stability for too long and have really angry Factions. So it is possible for the Merchants (with some Commoner Support in some provinces) to rise up to try to setup a Republic, and then have the Military come in and establish a Protectorate to 'Restore Order' before having the Nobles come back in with foreign support to reestablish a Monarchy, albeit a Constitutional One.
    I fell in love. This is truly Europa Universalis on steroids

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