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Thread: Grandchildren

  1. #1

    Unhappy Grandchildren

    There are some really big problems in the way that grandkids are handled in this game.

    For one thing it's really easy to lose track of your dynasty more then one generation down the ladder. Giving your eldest son a county pretty much guarantees that his heir is going to marry a nobody and you'll have no say in it. But even if you don't give him land the grandkids won't be able to marry well because they will count as unimportant nobodies. Even if they are heir to an empire they will still count as nobodies because they aren't your children and only titles held by you or your parents seem to give status. Cue "desires a better alliance" then the HRE or ERE.

    Also the AI doesn't understand grandkids. It's really easy to swindle a dynasty that had a long lived king. When gramps kicks the bucket his son get's the throne but his grandson get's a claim. This let's you invite the grandson to your court and marry him to one of your daughters matrilineally. After all he's just a courtier and has to marry who you say. Just hope that the grandkids don't marry some random debutante before gramps croaks. Be vigilent enough and you can fill your council with more princes then Aristotle's academy!

    These problems are so disappointing because overall the dynastic politics system of the game seems to work really well otherwise. I quite enjoy have the chance to set my chillun's up with that perfect mate. I just wish that it worked without me having to resort to exploitative workarounds after the first generation or two.

    I'd like to see some sort of "head of the family" mechanic that would fix these sort of problems. A character should trace their lineage back to their grandparents (or great-grandparents if still alive.) If one of the family patriarchs (or matriarchs) holds a higher title then them that character should be the head of the family and be allowed to arrange them marriages. After a certain age they might run off and marry on their own to keep the player from forcing celibacy on all the second sons but the AI will still judge a character's marriage value by the head of the family not the father/mother. This way more sensible marriages become possible and you don't lose the ability to play dynastic matchmaking just because you lived to be a grandpa.
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    Every winter my Uncle Bilbert used to go out and buy clothes for his entire hobbit family. I remember the first year I came along with him shopping. His tongue was swollen up so he was unable to speak but my uncle Bilbert was not concerned. He simply took me and my cousins to town and proudly presented his young relatives to the shopkeeper. The wise old clothesmaker just smiled and started taking measurements. After so many years of business he didn't hesitate to in fur my uncle's hobbits.

  2. #2
    While I too raise an eyebrow to the idea that being a grandson of a king is something to sneeze at, my concern is if they try to address this, moving up in the world via marriage would become prohibitively difficult.

  3. #3
    Field Marshal tnick0225's Avatar
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    There are ways to combat this though, you betrothe your son to someone and don't give him land until he has a son with said woman, and preferably never give the oldest land until his oldest son reaches the age of 6 then educate the grandkid yourself.

    Then if by some random miracle your still alive grant your son a duchy you'll still be guardian of the little rascal. Then if you can't find anyone decent to marry the grandkid off to if your still alive, marry him off to some worthless theologian homosexual who more then likely won't get prego, then when the grandkid's daddy comes to power you can probably kill the worthless wife and set up a much better marriage for now almost 30 year old grandson (or I guess son at this point)

    Although those ways are a bit gamey, I try my best to keep all the kids at court with no land. Only time I tend to distribute land to the kids is when succession comes along. That way the older brother can hand out duchies to his favorite bros and marry the rest off to dukes in Rus or Iceland where they won't cause trouble lol

    Like I said a gamier way of controlling things, but I'll agree with you grandkids are a headache I don't even think you can nominate them in elective either sadly

  4. #4
    Grandchildren of a King via his sons or, if he doesn't have any live sons, via his daughters should be prince and princesses as well. This should help in getting them married well. Also, the grandsons who appear to be pretenders to the kingdom should not accept matrillineal marriages (or in case of granddaughters, normal marriages).

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by tnick0225 View Post
    Then if by some random miracle your still alive grant your son a duchy you'll still be guardian of the little rascal.
    I find that if your son is fiefed and you are guardian to your grandson then it does not give you control over the grandson's marriages. Am I wrong here?
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    Every winter my Uncle Bilbert used to go out and buy clothes for his entire hobbit family. I remember the first year I came along with him shopping. His tongue was swollen up so he was unable to speak but my uncle Bilbert was not concerned. He simply took me and my cousins to town and proudly presented his young relatives to the shopkeeper. The wise old clothesmaker just smiled and started taking measurements. After so many years of business he didn't hesitate to in fur my uncle's hobbits.

  6. #6
    Duke of Middle Italy Tempestra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by keynes2.0 View Post
    I find that if your son is fiefed and you are guardian to your grandson then it does not give you control over the grandson's marriages. Am I wrong here?
    You're quite right. You need to get your grandson into your court to control his marriages, but just tutoring doesn't count as having him "in the court" - he's just sort of on attachment.

    You -might- be able to invite him in with the help of the +25 mentor relationship bonus but it's not really all that likely unless he hates his liege.

  7. #7
    well, i think reallistically some sons of a lord would have their own agenda once they start creating their own family, put I agree for gameplay sake, that maybe if grandchildren are in your court you should have control over them as if they were your sons?, maybe throw in some events with your grandchilds father opposing your influence over his children?

  8. #8
    Perhaps pretty much automatic acceptances of invitations to your court for 'close family' (i.e. nephews/nieces and grandchildren) when you are a higher rank than their parents, restricted to children who are of tutorable age?

    It would be a brave duke, after all, who would refuse such a request from his king and father.

    Edit: I should add that same realm would be necessary for the invitation.
    Last edited by feelotraveller; 31-05-2012 at 09:59.

  9. #9
    I'm usualy inviting well off and educated potential grooms a year before any of my grand-kids grow up.

    Then I try to get them betrothed early and force the marriage if I have to by cheating.

    I have little post-its near my pc to keep track of all of them haha

    I love to marry of any daughters with good stats as matrilinear marriages, I give the women land and when they have produced good heirs they will inherit it. Don't give it to your daughter's husband, because if he fathers a legitimized bastard before he gets his wife pregnant, your bound to see the bastard inherit the titles (happened to me once and then had to kill the young child my only assasination in my dynasty playthrough so far

  10. #10
    Why didn't you put the Bastard to the church?

  11. #11
    The main problem is, there is no way of monarch mediating agreements, like marriages or even vassalage transfer, between his vassals or between his vassal and foreign lord, while it happened pretty oft in history.

  12. #12
    I believe most of these problems would be solved by giving the head of a dynasty or realm more say in the matter. The ability to veto proposed marriages comes to mind.
    Perhaps this could be tied in to crown authority. Medium gives you the right to reject a bad marriage in the realm/dynasty, high gives the ability to 'suggest'.

    The reasoning behind this is that any king worth his salt should try and manipulate his subjects to his best advantage. Any king would get worried if two powerful dukedoms would be combined by marriage, for instance.

  13. #13
    Imperial Vicar of the HRE Ruwaard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Tornado View Post
    Grandchildren of a King via his sons or, if he doesn't have any live sons, via his daughters should be prince and princesses as well. This should help in getting them married well. Also, the grandsons who appear to be pretenders to the kingdom should not accept matrillineal marriages (or in case of granddaughters, normal marriages).
    I agree with most except for the part that granddaughters should never accept normal marriages; IMHO they should accept these, if their husband to be is powerful and prestigious enough (at least a very powerful duke or a king and/or emperor).

    Furthermore the head of a dynasty should only be able to intervene, if it is an unequal marriage, so either with a landless noble or more than one tier below your own (emperors should be grouped with kings in such a mechanic though).

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