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Thread: Some criticsm

  1. #1

    Some criticsm

    hello,

    I tested the game this week end, and here are some thoughts.

    Please notice I a old timer, both with P'Dox games and programming (33years of experience as programmer, and currently preparing a PhD in IT); that to say if my criticism do not please you, just take a deep breath and move on, they are only (and for what it is worth) just a personal opinion. On the other hand, I believe we would all beneficiate of well behaved discussion (might give idea to the devs).

    I played Ger , 33 scenario (patch 1.2).

    1) It is still easy to DOW Spain, invade it, annexe and liberate (2 weeks), by so gaining the following advantages : secure foothall to attack Gibraltar, some minor (or even major) tech for free (by so akin as to have +1 tech team in average, and allowing me to tech rush; or research tech that I shall not be able to research!)

    2)It is also still very easy to abuse the economical system, 1 jully 1933 and I have reduce my dissent down to 25%, moved the slider down to max planned eco (-2).

    3) Lot of money/goods/food can be made just by selling antique techs (1870 infanterie for example).

    Notice I do not think I even maxed out those flaws, as I presume I started to sell the tech one month too early (and doing so, not riping all that I should have ripe).

    I do admit the game is giving a fresh air to HOI2 (reason why I bought it); but still thsoe flaws (who were described already in vanilla HOI2) are existing, and somehow make the game way to easy. I did not try if the Czechoslovakia trick is still possible (early attack , take the VP without destroying the units, pupet, liberate after the Anschluss); or worst if Blue Emu gambit (ally with Austia, attack as much as posible, let Austria make the annexions and so get the malus for it, then break the alliance and anschluss the whole mittel europa!) is posible.

    So ,because criticsm must be balanced with positive idea, I would suggest the devs to improve those points, and the relation that made a small trade (5 food vs 1.2 $ with UK) outweight on the long run the Spanish affair (same here, my relation with UK were almost back to normal).

    Anyway, thanks for the fresh air over HOI2; much more interresting than HOI3 in my opinion.
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  2. #2
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    I'm not getting how you are saying an invasion of spain would give you the ability to tech rush?

  3. #3
    Complexe to explain, futhermore I am not a native (anglo-saxon) and my english is broken, so try to bare with me.

    Back to the old day of HOI2, invading Spain in 1936 was providing you with a puppet having 42 IC and 3 tech teams.
    The AI file was leading those tech teams to research always the same techs, a knowledge of it would allowing GER to skip (provisory) said techs, and OR tech rush the industrial tech (add to it the right minister) and the tech for lines,(that provide a boost in time for both build and upgrade) was researched by early 39.

    So it would appear (at least to some extend, I did nto check the spanish AI file, I did not verify Spain industry as a puppet will expand over the initial IC from 03/1933 up to 42 IC) Spain follow a research path that is similar to GER :

    the first 2 techs researched are the first rocket tech (already know by GER) and the third tech related to intelligence (decryption I suppose); the third tech researched being Air superiority.

    So instead of researching decryption and Air superiority almost in parallel with Spain; I do presume it would be interresting to tech rush the next industrial tech (or the one that give some IC in more, or the one that give efficiency for both industry and suplly). While the tech rush penality will apply fully (4 years in advance), it will be moderated by the fact we will get free blue print for 2 (if not 3) other techs; and also by the fact the research efficiency will be forcefully boost by the decision (invest in research providing + 2.5 %).

    So the tech rush have also to be understood with regards to the (potential, or presumed) flaws I dared to express in my earlier post (if you can not boost the research efficiency, so I am not sure you would gain something in tech rushing).

    Futhermore, you still can choose to not tech rush as per se, but simply go for some techs that are rarely taken (because almost useless) or not worth the time spend on them, so it create some balancing issue.

    For memory, playing GER with HOI2 (vanilla or extension) I never ever build any land units untill jully 1939; only using the already here + austrian army + the div given for czechoslovakia. My IC were used to build other IC, infra, planes,fortification ,and ships. Problem is , when you own all western europe by 01/01/1940 there is nothing much to do but go for a world conquest. I do hope I will NOT be able to reproduce that with DH (so the reason for the thread).

    The worst case (lol) being able to have as pupet both Spain and Czechoslovackia; because research is not a problem at all, as the important tech will come as blue print!

    I hope that long post fully answer your short question.
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  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by ericB View Post
    2)It is also still very easy to abuse the economical system, 1 jully 1933 and I have reduce my dissent down to 25%, moved the slider down to max planned eco (-2).
    You lose more than you gain from going Central planning.
    Free market is something I highly treasure while playing as Germany.

  5. #5
    Podcat's Cat Wrangler T.j. Arnold's Avatar
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    I still don't get what you're saying, it's impossible to "skip" techs by liberating a nation. After the initial war, anybody is pretty much free to declare war on anybody, anyway.
    Why shouldn't a Fascist dictatorship be free to declare war on whoever they want?

    I don't see how being a programmer, or even having a PHD in IT (which is completely different) would make these complaints any more justified.

  6. #6
    Sure you might have Spain and Czechoslovakia as puppets, but Germany's research teams are much better overall (presumably) than either of those two. (Note that allies in wartime at least, and possibly peacetime, give/cheaply sell their blueprints to their other members.) Personally, I play with more than the base tech teams so I find the extra IC from those conquests provides additional research slots is more valuable than grabbing blueprints from an ally.

    Also as I'm sure the relationships really don't matter between Germany and the UK/France in the long run, belligerence is in my opinion a much more important value as it determines better when and who can attack you.

    Have to agree with Kannon, a high degree of central planning ends up causing more problems than it is worth (units take forever to upgrade and cost a whole lot more IC), until you get to the point where you produce units that you will never need to upgrade.

    You may encounter some difficulties with the long unit build times if you wait to start building units until 1939. Western Europe may not be a big problem, but the Soviet front may give you some difficulties. I've been playing the AAR mod for the last year and so I tend to build up a nation from 1914 or 1918, and not start just prior to the war ('33/'36/'39). In that mod I tend to start building up in mid 1936. You may want to take a look at this http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/...e-to-the-Memel AAR, it has some thoughts on Germany's buildup from a '36 start in 1.01 I think.
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  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by T.j. Arnold View Post
    I still don't get what you're saying, it's impossible to "skip" techs by liberating a nation. After the initial war, anybody is pretty much free to declare war on anybody, anyway.
    Why shouldn't a Fascist dictatorship be free to declare war on whoever they want?

    I don't see how being a programmer, or even having a PHD in IT (which is completely different) would make these complaints any more justified.
    Well, first it is not complain as per se, but criticism; mean something that seems to me weak and in the need of improvement while still being purely and totally a personal feeling.

    Pointing out on my actual (and eventually future) credential have to be taken as : I am a professional that address other professional (the devs), implying that address might be blunt (or without diplomacy) but in no way disrespectfull (the reason of the last line, where I do thank them for the novelty of DH and the professionalism they showed in creating it).

    In my country, it is the formal way to use when addressing people who do have a similar job/position but working for a different company (example).
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  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Jekolmy View Post
    Sure you might have Spain and Czechoslovakia as puppets, but Germany's research teams are much better overall (presumably) than either of those two. (Note that allies in wartime at least, and possibly peacetime, give/cheaply sell their blueprints to their other members.) Personally, I play with more than the base tech teams so I find the extra IC from those conquests provides additional research slots is more valuable than grabbing blueprints from an ally.

    Also as I'm sure the relationships really don't matter between Germany and the UK/France in the long run, belligerence is in my opinion a much more important value as it determines better when and who can attack you.

    Have to agree with Kannon, a high degree of central planning ends up causing more problems than it is worth (units take forever to upgrade and cost a whole lot more IC), until you get to the point where you produce units that you will never need to upgrade.

    You may encounter some difficulties with the long unit build times if you wait to start building units until 1939. Western Europe may not be a big problem, but the Soviet front may give you some difficulties. I've been playing the AAR mod for the last year and so I tend to build up a nation from 1914 or 1918, and not start just prior to the war ('33/'36/'39). In that mod I tend to start building up in mid 1936. You may want to take a look at this http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/...e-to-the-Memel AAR, it has some thoughts on Germany's buildup from a '36 start in 1.01 I think.
    Well you misunderstood my post, make me feel sorry for my broken english!

    The point is any pupet will do research on its own, so let say even if it take a pupet one full year to research post war tank IV (example) and then give to the master the blue print; overall it will be better for the master to delay said research untill the pupet finish it and then use the blue print (research time halfed I believe).

    Concretly, instead of having Krupp taking 4 month to research it if I launch that search the 01/01/1934; it will take only 2 month if I do the research after my puppet gave me the blue print, and I can instead search something else eventually ahead of time!

    But obviously, if you use more than 5 tech teams, it will means less or even nothing, on the other hand doing so (using more tech teams) will create balancing issues, right? Personaly I am neither looking to reproduce WWII (I did indeed read several books about it, so I already know how it happened and finished), neither play the Uber mega zorg mod, where my country is able to crush everyone in 6 month. I do have no problem to game the game (the spain opening, the czeck overtur or blue emu gambit were well know at the time of vanilla HOI2 and were considered as gamey; still I loved to use them). Where I do have problem is when obvious flaws (Spain shall be garanted to avoid any attack and instead push players to be more active during the civil war).

    My playing style (it is perso, I do not play multi, so it may be simply insane) would be best describe as :

    1) Have as much as IC that is possible untill the first vienna award , so build only IC and long run of INT/FIGH/MULTI (have to choose) and Medium bomber (goal being 20 INT for sep 39 with at least 12 (while expanding) Medium bomber.

    2) after the first vienna award, build mostly INF/ART or INF/SPART (if possible with regards to the oil situation), 1 ARM army (let say 9 to 12 ARM + MOT) that have to be ready for mid 40.

    To value planning vs free market, I will have to do some number crunch; but in the time of the good old HOI2; Kanitaklan did some, and came with the result Planning was the best IF you did not have to move for it. DH allow to be fully planning without moving the slider (boost research or infrastruture or economic improvement will do the trick, and money is easy to come by if you prepare for it, actually making 25$ a day with germany at the 01/01/1934, having 136/122 IC and 0 dissent.

    One thing many player forget, the more units you have, the more costly in food it is. No reason to have units unused in 1937, better to have the right amount the 01/01/1939, so my building strategy and research strategy is based on that : the fastest I can have the 1940 tech the best it is, because anyway I will not build early. I will prefer to attack with under maned army Poland, if that allow me to storm France with medium bombers with tech 1941 (that was possible with mod33 + Arma).

    Do not misunderstand here too, I am all for long run (because the bonus up to 35%); but I would prefer to start 12 * 99 in late 1938 than 2 *99 in early 36; because what will I do with unit in 1937/1938/ early 39??????????? Pay for food???? What I do need is 220 IC instead of 122 the 01/10/1938 (shall be over 350 usable IC) and start churning out units as if it was no tomorrow.

    And so I feel it will be easier with DH , but to demonstrate it give me some month that I found the ideal path (when selling the old techs, to who? what tech shall I research, what tech my pupets will research ...).
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  9. #9
    Greetings
    I see your point of puppet nations developing different techs.
    One Workaround may be a reduction of your max. number of tech teams.
    Or, if you don´t like to weaken other nations - make a "house-rule" of using only 3 or 4 teams.
    I prefer playing with 6 techteams, because there is quite an amount of techs and I like the flavour of buliding a useless german navy.

    And, please, keep in mind, that the building time for units is way longer.

  10. #10
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    Moreover, whine about Germans which are too easy to play is meaningless. If you had read so many books as you claim to, you have to remember that Germans were prepared for war. They had also most experienced scientists in the world, and that's why after war they were "hired" by major countries to develop such things as atomic bomb or intercontinental rockets.

    You can't deny fact, that they have developed most advanced heavy tanks or V2 rockets... That's how "deutsche wirtschaft" works!
    Last edited by General Italia; 29-05-2012 at 21:42. Reason: grammar:)
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  11. #11
    Podcat's Cat Wrangler T.j. Arnold's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ericB View Post
    In my country, it is the formal way to use when addressing people who do have a similar job/position but working for a different company (example).
    Ni shi zhongwen ma? Wo zai ha'erbin xuexile haoji nian.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by General Italia View Post
    Moreover, whine about Germans which are too easy to play is meaningless. If you had read so many books as you claim to, you have to remember that Germans were prepared for war. They had also most experienced scientists in the world, and that's why after war they were "hired" by major countries to develop such things as atomic bomb or intercontinental rockets.

    You can't deny fact, that they have developed most advanced heavy tanks or V2 rockets... That's how "deutsche wirtschaft" works!
    Mate that is similar to the saying :

    Drunk as a Pole (very popular french saying), because everyone know Poles are drunk from dawn to dusk!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    It means, as obviously that saying is a 'cliche' , so is yours. Germany was less preparing for war that Poland was doing it at that time (and for good reasons, if you follow the 'Promotheus' doctrine).

    Whatever I claimed , it is not the point (moreover I did NOT claim to have read that many books, dare you! lol). Neither do I whine ( I am french, not an english; we do wine, it is them who whine!). In 1933 Germany was not gearign forwar, way less than Poland. Not even in 1938 for the Anschluss, the werhmacht was ready. Check the archives (I believe they are online) and come back to us.

    fact, we are dragging into a topic that is not what I wanted.The discussion is not about me, my supposed readins or knowledge vs your supposed reading or knowledge; but the fact that I pointed on 2 supposed weaknesses and the assessment of said weaknesses : are they flaws or a figment of my imagination? Can they fixed or better wording improved? If they are flaws, is it 'game breaker' flaws or just some minor weakness providig nothing and breaking no balance.

    For the rest we are on internet, I can for example tell you I went in Poland 3 times in the end of 70, and have intercourse with so many ugly ladies there that you are maybe my sion; or some other utter bullshit about the lenght of my genitals, the position I do have in Thailand as a closes advisator of the King, blah blah blah. better to keep on the topic, we may eventually speak about the interbellum period by PM , if you really want it mate.
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  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by T.j. Arnold View Post
    Ni shi zhongwen ma? Wo zai ha'erbin xuexile haoji nian.
    I am french, living in Thailand, my knowledge of cantonese is poor at best : LA question est related to something not learn such as Did you not learn your history?

    the second sentence is a statement related to you (Wo) learning (might be discovering too) something related to a city (haerbin to my knowledge is a city, with some great hotels).

    Be careful, you will get a warning (got one with a sentence about Cao Cao, lol).

    PM me the meaning of it , if you please (Sei sei ni, ma)
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  14. #14
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    Oh my God... let's start from the begining...

    It means, as obviously that saying is a 'cliche' , so is yours. Germany was less preparing for war that Poland was doing it at that time (and for good reasons, if you follow the 'Promotheus' doctrine).
    Germany was LESS prepared for war than Poland?! Where did you learnt history! First of all, Rapallo treaty something is telling you? In 1922 Germany and USSR had signed treaty which hugely helped Germany! Secondly, after Hitler was assigned as head of state, he had began a huge investments in infrastructure (such as motorways). Just wonder why... probably just Jewish tourism...
    Poland started in 1936 huge investments in industry ("4 year plan") created by Eugeniusz Kwiatkowski... but it didn't ended. The war has began!

    Whatever I claimed , it is not the point (moreover I did NOT claim to have read that many books, dare you! lol). Neither do I whine ( I am french, not an english; we do wine, it is them who whine!). In 1933 Germany was not gearign forwar, way less than Poland. Not even in 1938 for the Anschluss, the werhmacht was ready. Check the archives (I believe they are online) and come back to us.
    I will just quote Hitler:
    "Give me five years and you won't recognize Germany" ~1933, Hitler.

    "Danzig is not the subject of the dispute at all. It is a question of expanding our living space in the East and of securing our food supplies, of the settlement of the Baltic problem. Food supplies can be expected only from thinly populated areas. Over and above the natural fertility, thorough- going German exploitation will enormously increase the surplus." ~1939, Hitler

    "Poland's internal power of resistance to Bolshevism is doubtful. Thus Poland is of doubtful value as a barrier against Russia." ~Hitler

    I don't want even to remind you known German adage: "Drang nach Osten".


    For the rest we are on internet, I can for example tell you I went in Poland 3 times in the end of 70, and have intercourse with so many ugly ladies there that you are maybe my sion; or some other utter bullshit about the lenght of my genitals, the position I do have in Thailand as a closes advisator of the King, blah blah blah. better to keep on the topic, we may eventually speak about the interbellum period by PM , if you really want it mate.
    I've just wanted to show you your ignorance in II WW topic. Without knowledge you are claiming that Germans (i mean Hitler and Nazis - not whole nation) weren't preparing for war. Moreover game shows exactly why Hitler could so quickly rebuild his Wehrmacht, and why Britain remained so peacefuly set to so "harmed" nation after I WW.

    P.S. It's a really shame that you have to have "closer contacts" with womans so ugly and so far away from your homeland... i really don't mind who you are, where do you live, but as long as you will whine about "less prepared Germans" for war, or too advantage techknowledge of their scientists... man do i really need to get over this?
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  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by General Italia View Post
    Oh my God... let's start from the begining...



    Germany was LESS prepared for war than Poland?! Where did you learnt history! First of all, Rapallo treaty something is telling you? In 1922 Germany and USSR had signed treaty which hugely helped Germany! Secondly, after Hitler was assigned as head of state, he had began a huge investments in infrastructure (such as motorways). Just wonder why... probably just Jewish tourism...
    Poland started in 1936 huge investments in industry ("4 year plan") created by Eugeniusz Kwiatkowski... but it didn't ended. The war has began!



    I will just quote Hitler:
    "Give me five years and you won't recognize Germany" ~1933, Hitler.

    "Danzig is not the subject of the dispute at all. It is a question of expanding our living space in the East and of securing our food supplies, of the settlement of the Baltic problem. Food supplies can be expected only from thinly populated areas. Over and above the natural fertility, thorough- going German exploitation will enormously increase the surplus." ~1939, Hitler

    "Poland's internal power of resistance to Bolshevism is doubtful. Thus Poland is of doubtful value as a barrier against Russia." ~Hitler

    I don't want even to remind you known German adage: "Drang nach Osten".




    I've just wanted to show you your ignorance in II WW topic. Without knowledge you are claiming that Germans (i mean Hitler and Nazis - not whole nation) weren't preparing for war. Moreover game shows exactly why Hitler could so quickly rebuild his Wehrmacht, and why Britain remained so peacefuly set to so "harmed" nation after I WW.

    P.S. It's a really shame that you have to have "closer contacts" with womans so ugly and so far away from your homeland... i really don't mind who you are, where do you live, but as long as you will whine about "less prepared Germans" for war, or too advantage techknowledge of their scientists... man do i really need to get over this?
    Well, I am indeed very gratefull that life and fate gave me the wonderfull chance to meet an individual so much versed in history, and with a sense of humor incomparable.

    To you , dear Sir, I can not even dream to kiss your feet, but only the soil on where they walked!

    By the way, if you allow me, I always thought the exact quote was :
    Give me FIFTEEN years and you won't recognize Germany

    But anyway, who am I to try to correct such science, knowledge and whatever ... whatever!

    I am now in doubt about the prometheus doctrine, in doubt it was a polish idea, even that it was the brain child of Pilduzcki. I suppose it is simply propaganda from germany and soviet union that made me believe so; while in true Poland was a pacefull country, full of dove, where Polish were kissing every morning thei jewish neibor or the ukrainian familly living next door.

    I am so ashamed to have believe to such monstuosities (exemple Poland stating they will roll over german army at any moment, when they met with french envoys) that I do not know what to say ... I am so glad you corrected me, removed my prejugees (is that correct in english????), and showed me the light. Trully from today on, you are my hero.

    May I suggest you apply for a position in La Sorbonne, because obviously they are in need of your knowledge.


    As we used to say in France (traditional French saying, so sorry if it hurt , it is my culture) : Drunk as only a Polack(Pole? Polish person?) can be!
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  16. #16
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    You should try turning down the patronizing. It is very unbecoming.

  17. #17
    Second Lieutenant General Italia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ericB
    Give me FIFTEEN years and you won't recognize Germany
    I have no questions...

    Hitler was elected in 1933. So let's SUPPOSE that he said this quote in form which you have changed. What we have? 1948? And than he would declare war?

    Quote Originally Posted by ericB
    I am now in doubt about the prometheus doctrine, in doubt it was a polish idea, even that it was the brain child of Pilduzcki. I suppose it is simply propaganda from germany and soviet union that made me believe so; while in true Poland was a pacefull country, full of dove, where Polish were kissing every morning thei jewish neibor or the ukrainian familly living next door.
    Oh yes.
    You don't know even how to write properly name of polish dictator, you never heard about UPA crimes on Poles on eastern border in Lvov surroundings. Maybe you would like to tell me that Obama was right with "polish death camps"? Or maybe you will suggest me that Poland didn't had the biggest Jewish community in Europe? They were even in Sejm. I may tell you their names, but surely you know them... also there is huge involvment of Jewish writers in Polish literature (such as Bruno Shulz, Julian Tuwim, Jan Brzechwa or Bolesław Lesmian).
    What concerns "Operation Prometheus". You probably know that... how did you called him...Pilduzcki (Piłsudzki)... died in 1935. Without him whole "sanacja" was just a group of army oficers without purpose.

    There is only one black chart in II Polish Republic where Poles screwed up on whole line - Jedwabne. Nevertheless Poles have most medals of Chasid Umot ha-Olam (about 6 thousands). You could even saw Polish movie "In Darkness" ("W Ciemności") which tells a story of polish theif you covers jewish family. But of course we are so antisemithic - not like lovely 3rd Reich! Also you surely know fate of Ulm family...

    @vcgetdown
    There is "Godwin rule". That's all i want to say in this matter.

    P.S. I really don't mind how do you call drunk people in your country. It show only how shallow you are.
    Last edited by General Italia; 31-05-2012 at 16:09. Reason: grammar and some added facts
    "The tragedy of our times is we take authority as truth, not truth as authority" ~ dr. Hawass

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by ericB View Post
    I am now in doubt about the prometheus doctrine, in doubt it was a polish idea, even that it was the brain child of Pilduzcki. I suppose it is simply propaganda from germany and soviet union that made me believe so; while in true Poland was a pacefull country, full of dove, where Polish were kissing every morning thei jewish neibor or the ukrainian familly living next door.
    Ukrainians have had some problems with their polish neighbours.
    Since ~1648 and up to around 1922.

    With sweet revange in 1939 and after 1945.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by General Italia View Post
    You don't know even how to write properly name of polish dictator, you never heard about UPA crimes on Poles on eastern border in Lvov surroundings. Maybe you would like to tell me that Obama was right with "polish death camps"? Or maybe you will suggest me that Poland didn't had the biggest Jewish community in Europe? They were even in Sejm. I may tell you their names, but surely you know them...
    What touches "Operation Prometheus". You probably know that... how did you called him...Pilduzcki (Piłsudzki)... died in 1935. Without him whole "sanacja" was just a group of army oficers without purpose.
    Now, now, what the heck did the Polish republic did as soon as they got freedom?

    That`s right, they went 2 wars with their neighbours, to conquer teritories not populated by poles.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by General Italia View Post
    In 1920 Poland had attacked USSR... Czechoslovakia also helped Poles by taking Zaolzie...from us... what else... who did we attack...

    To one thing i may admit - we have retaken Vilnius in not so "bright" light, but i do not support "sanacja" at all. Much closer i have to Dmowski.

    Moreover if you call "sweet" revenge by this (http://ukraine.donklass.info/OUN-UPA/OUN-UPA-Crimes/) i have totally no questions to you. Poles never did such thing to Ukrainians. Never do and never will do.
    Poland did indeed atacke USSR. 1920. and west Ukrainin Republic(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Uk...#39;s_Republic) in 1919.

    Then, in 1939, we took back our land.

    Then, after 1945, Poles got the sweet taste of being a puppet of unfriendly neighbour, something we did indeed expirienced since the Polish-Litunian unification.


    No need for the bulshit. Poles were just as any other nation at the time, expancionists whenever the oportunity presents, and whinners when not.

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