Medium Ca is kinda bad for the game i feel....

[Kynaz]

Im not sure if its representation is historical , if it is , i still feel the same. I feel that Medium CA kinda ruins the entire experience of the game. It takes the entire conflict out of the game if you will (whether you are a vassal or have vassals).



Basically when im a vassal i feel like the game is just imbalanced. Every game it feels like the first thing each ruler does is try increase CA , all the way to Absolute. Getting to Medium usually takes a few decades max. And its usually very quick to pass and near unstoppable / preventable in bigger rulerships like HRE , France or England. So every game i basically find i go after the Kingdoms of either Sicily or Ireland (they are so easy to take , but the ai don't think of the game this way) to circumvent the crown laws that make the game , basically unplayable for a vassal. But this is getting really boring , i miss the conflict with other vassals. Using this gamey method (though perfectly valid nonetheless ) , i end up just picking at helpless dukes till i eventually overpower the ruler. But if i don't go after these Kingdom titles and bypass Med CA , im stuck doing virtually nothing all game long because im not strong enough to fight any real nations , and im not able to fight anyone internally.



Does anyone else feel this way? i realise as a ruler its very convenient to ensure vassals stay in their de jures , but its god boring to me as both a ruler and even more so as a vassal. Its basically impossible for AI vassals under Med ca to ever mount a realistic rebellion unless the stars align and they all snowball.

[Hootieleece]

I agree CA is overpowered and too quick to go up.The first thing a King does is raise CA.There should be a waiting period akin to the succession laws.I think that maximun CA should be limited by legalism level.Level 1 =limited CA,Level 2=Medium CA,Level 3=High CA, etc. These changes would keep the CA lower in all realms making playing a vassal easier.The CA rush that gets England(or any kingdom) to absolute by 1100 or so would be nerfed thus making game more playable at lower levels.
I also think changing succession laws should be harder especially for HRE. IRL HRE remained agnatic elective its whole history.Even when the Habsburgs almost made HRE hereditary(1440-1740)They still went through with the elections, because that was part of their legitimacy.

[DreadLindwyrm]

You'd never be able to get to the higher forms of Crown Authority, and thus you wouldn't be able to adopt some of the succession laws. Unless of course you decouple these from crown authority, in which case say hello to everywhere being primogeniture within a couple of weeks.

[neondt]

I think the "vassals cannot fight each other" rule should apply only under high and higher CA. Playing in the HRE is extremely boring under medium CA. Also, the AI shouldn't always be attempting to keep CA as high as possible. I'd actually like to see AI monarchs occasionally lowering CA to, for example, appease an overwhelmingly displeased collection of vassals. There's plenty of historical precedent for this, the obvious one being Henry I of England's coronation charter, in which he grants his vassals greater autonomy within their own lands.

[Hootieleece]

You'd never be able to get to the higher forms of Crown Authority, and thus you wouldn't be able to adopt some of the succession laws. Unless of course you decouple these from crown authority, in which case say hello to everywhere being primogeniture within a couple of weeks.

Primogeniture is the succession law of most of the Kingdoms in game at 1066 start.Higher title succession laws override lower titles. Also if King creates Duchy and then gives it to you.Presto, you now have primogeniture.(Sorry for everyone in HRE)It would make becoming King a more important goal.

Having everyone(at all levels) with primogeniture early(before 14th century) is unrealistic.I know this is an ahistorical game but some semblance to RL history is important.(to me at least)

[Hootieleece]

I think the "vassals cannot fight each other" rule should apply only under high and higher CA. Playing in the HRE is extremely boring under medium CA. Also, the AI shouldn't always be attempting to keep CA as high as possible. I'd actually like to see AI monarchs occasionally lowering CA to, for example, appease an overwhelmingly displeased collection of vassals. There's plenty of historical precedent for this, the obvious one being Henry I of England's coronation charter, in which he grants his vassals greater autonomy within their own lands.

Another example Magna Carta signed by King John in 1215.

[Raczynski]

Primogeniture is the succession law of most of the Kingdoms in game at 1066 start.Higher title succession laws override lower titles. Also if King creates Duchy and then gives it to you.Presto, you now have primogeniture.(Sorry for everyone in HRE)It would make becoming King a more important goal.

Having everyone(at all levels) with primogeniture early(before 14th century) is unrealistic.I know this is an ahistorical game but some semblance to RL history is important.(to me at least)

Actually gavelkind is the default and most common succesion law.

[Kynaz]

I think the "vassals cannot fight each other" rule should apply only under high and higher CA. Playing in the HRE is extremely boring under medium CA. Also, the AI shouldn't always be attempting to keep CA as high as possible. I'd actually like to see AI monarchs occasionally lowering CA to, for example, appease an overwhelmingly displeased collection of vassals. There's plenty of historical precedent for this, the obvious one being Henry I of England's coronation charter, in which he grants his vassals greater autonomy within their own lands.

I was thinking something similar to this at first , but honestly is the whole "no vassal can wage war" law ever a fun or good one for the game?

I feel like it should have greater burden tied to it. I mean even the BIG dukes that could easily destroy me seem to always tag along with w/e the Emperor or King wants in terms of CA. Its not like they do it out of self preservation , they just do it for some unknown reason.



Anyway im not sure what the historic reality was back then. I guess im mainly thinking of things from a game play perspective , both that of a player ruler and a player vassal. The game is actually 10x easier with Med ca on , simply because i CAN take Ireland , Sicily even Denmark (or just a duchy within one of those if im under Royal laws)and just pick at all the other dukes with no fear of retaliation. But at the same time , gameplay feels lost and boring.


For the time being ive decided to start loading as Liege , keeping CA at limited , than reloading as the vassal. This may seem gamey but its awhole lot more fun , and challenging than capturing Ireland / Sicily (or even just the duchy of Meath as Kingdom tier vassal..... l0l....literally 1 county > usurp > de jure claim > win) and facerolling my way across "dead" ai's.

[nyah]

Another example Magna Carta signed by King John in 1215.

After having lost a war triggered by a plot to lower crown authority, in game terms. The first thing he did when he regained a little more hold on England was to try to take more power back.

Henry I, perhaps in game terms his lowering of CA could be seen as an attempt to placate his vassals following the successful plot to murder his brother. Died choking on his own blood FYI.

[dauncosony]

I haven't ran into problems with Medium Crown Authority yet. I always seem to become powerful enough to lower it or keep it at limited. Games these days seem to have explosive independence wars which tends to be lost by the liege, lowering the Crown Authority.

[Hootieleece]

Actually gavelkind is the default and most common succesion law.

Just look at the succession laws of Kingdoms of England,France,Castille,Leon,Navarre, and Aragon. All are primogeniture at start of campaign.In fact England even starts at medium CA.No real need to ever raise it since the biggest reason to get High CA is primogeniture succession.You already have it.

I know that gavelkind is common for counts and dukes in game.

[Calbrenar]

All you need is a primary title outside of the de jure crown law area and you can do wahatever you want. For example as Kingdom of Sicily (or as Toscana if you form Italy) you are under the Italian/Sicilian crown laws whether or not you swear fealty to the Emperor. I guess a better example would be Italy -> HRE and Sicily -> ERE. Regardless if you have a primary title outside of an area covered by their crown laws you can do whatever you want. As Queen of Italy I was picking off dejure German dukes and adding them to Italy with High Crown authority HRE and he couldn't do squat to stop me.

As Sicily you can swear to absolute authority ERE and then proceed to demolish the ERE from the inside and the emperor can do nothing but watch. The Byz Dukes can't even band together to try to get revenge on you because under Abs they can't war lol

[dauncosony]

As Sicily you can swear to absolute authority ERE and then proceed to demolish the ERE from the inside and the emperor can do nothing but watch. The Byz Dukes can't even band together to try to get revenge on you because under Abs they can't war lol

But you can't war either because Sicily is a de jure part of ERE, the CA affects you as well, even if you're a King.

[Kynaz]

All you need is a primary title outside of the de jure crown law area and you can do wahatever you want. For example as Kingdom of Sicily (or as Toscana if you form Italy) you are under the Italian/Sicilian crown laws whether or not you swear fealty to the Emperor. I guess a better example would be Italy -> HRE and Sicily -> ERE. Regardless if you have a primary title outside of an area covered by their crown laws you can do whatever you want. As Queen of Italy I was picking off dejure German dukes and adding them to Italy with High Crown authority HRE and he couldn't do squat to stop me.

As Sicily you can swear to absolute authority ERE and then proceed to demolish the ERE from the inside and the emperor can do nothing but watch. The Byz Dukes can't even band together to try to get revenge on you because under Abs they can't war lol

As Sicily you can swear to absolute authority ERE and then proceed to demolish the ERE from the inside and the emperor can do nothing but watch. The Byz Dukes can't even band together to try to get revenge on you because under Abs they can't war lol

Hey man!!!! read my post and not just the title. Because what you said here specifically , the part i bolded , thats a huge issue that i brought up in my main post!!!. Do you really think its fun to steamroll effectively dead ai's? i want some challenge and conflict!

As i said earlier , its a catch 22. It works , but its incredibly boring and unsatisfying. In all truth there might as well not be any other Vassals because they can't fight back. And to be frank , every game i play i always end up being IRELAND. Duke of Bavaria? > Ireland. Duke of Lower lorraine? > King of IRELAND. Duke of Somerset? > Duke of Meath..............and eventually after de jure shift , King of Ireland.

LOL it just feels silly seeing "Kingdom of Ireland" in the middle of the HRE. And its not balanced at all because the AI have no concept of cheesing the Laws. BUT most of all , MOST importantly , there should be no need to cheese the game to get around a mechanic that basically kills all the fun.



Again im not sure why it is the way it is. Was it a historic reason? was CA really that easy to pass that such limitations could be achieved in a mere 2-3 decades? I don't really care in truth because i feel gameplay > historical sense in major cases like this. But i assume there was a reason they designed it this way.

I haven't ran into problems with Medium Crown Authority yet. I always seem to become powerful enough to lower it or keep it at limited. Games these days seem to have explosive independence wars which tends to be lost by the liege, lowering the Crown Authority.

Yeah i think its more of an issue with bigger Kingdoms and in situations where de jures work a little oddly. Like in HRE its incredibly hard for a non german (duchies with voting powers) ruler to have any influence over the politics of the HRE. And even if you are one of those with voting rights , the ai around you will still vote the laws in and because it requires an ungodly amount of support to actually defeat the emperor , most the time even once you get a plot it doesn't have a hope in hell of working.

I will say , in HRE games after a couple hundred years , HRE grows too big and due to distance realm penalties , starts having issues with Vassals in Previously Muslim controlled lands. Because it takes the emperor 10-20 years.... literally... to get his armies to every last rebel , some inevitably gain independence. He takes them back , and the cycle repeats with autonomous vassals being pretty much perm. It also seems to happen with France to a lesser extent (though france is so turbulent l0l). But honestly it takes a long time because the HRE spends 99% of its time in religious defence wars. As i said it usually doesn't start happening till 1250's , around about 200 years of game play. And even 50 years of Med ca is enough to make me want to quit.

[dauncosony]

Yeah i think its more of an issue with bigger Kingdoms and in situations where de jures work a little oddly. Like in HRE its incredibly hard for a non german (duchies with voting powers) ruler to have any influence over the politics of the HRE. And even if you are one of those with voting rights , the ai around you will still vote the laws in and because it requires an ungodly amount of support to actually defeat the emperor , most the time even once you get a plot it doesn't have a hope in hell of working.

In my current game I started as the Count of Tirol. I merely lucked out when the Crown Authority was raised, I couldn't do anything to make myself more powerful (I was a 12 count County), even with my claim on the Duchy of Tyrol. It just so happened that the Kaiser decided to transfer my vassalage to the Duke of Tyrol

But the whole Medium CA thing really gets me worked up when I play, it gets really tense and makes me want to expand fast before it's too late. I haven't played a game where I stagnated from Medium CA yet, maybe that day will come.

[Calbrenar]

But you can't war either because Sicily is a de jure part of ERE, the CA affects you as well, even if you're a King.

You sure that is the case as only one set of crown laws can apply to an area and I thought the Sicilian ones take precedence because dejure ERE only applies to a few of your counties and not the whole area? Either way the general idea stands in that you can pick any place outside.

Sorry OP I should have read your post more closely I've seen a billion of these crown authority threads and I assumed it was a similar one. My bad.

[dauncosony]

You sure that is the case as only one set of crown laws can apply to an area and I thought the Sicilian ones take precedence because dejure ERE only applies to a few of your counties and not the whole area? Either way the general idea stands in that you can pick any place outside.

No, the top liege CA applies in all de jure land, this includes Sicily, Croatia, Serbia, Bulgaria, Byzantion, Armenia, Syria, and Jerusalem. Sicily's CA would not exist because it shares the same as the ERE if it were a vassal. If it is Absolute then you can't declare war ever (unless it's against your liege).

[Zealuu]

Just look at the succession laws of Kingdoms of England,France,Castille,Leon,Navarre, and Aragon. All are primogeniture at start of campaign.In fact England even starts at medium CA.No real need to ever raise it since the biggest reason to get High CA is primogeniture succession.You already have it.

I know that gavelkind is common for counts and dukes in game.

Of all those, I'm pretty sure it's only England starting with Primogeniture. It's the exception rather than the rule, pretty much anywhere that doesn't start with Elective has Gavelkind. Christian Iberia in 1066, for instance, is a patchwork of small Kingdoms precisely because the long-standing inheritance custom lead to constant partitioning.

Either way, after having always aimed for Primogeniture in my first couple of games, I've come to regard it as a little overrated. Elective lets me pick the best child (or even grandchild, sometimes the good traits seem to skip a generation) to carry on the game as, without having to assassinate half my brood first. It also makes for much happier vassals and pretenders. The only drawback is the unlanded sons thing from Primogeniture still applies, which can be an annoyance in Duchies/Counties where you breed profusely before conquering the appropriate amount of territory.

I do agree on the CA thing though. Sometimes it's healthy for the Kingdom with low CA, but the AI doesn't see it that way. Ever. It's a complete disaster if there's a string of short reigns, suddenly HRE is at High Crown authority before 1100. I WAS SO CLOSE TO BECOMING QUEEN OF ITALY.

[tcplotts]

On the other hand, medium CA can be a lifesaver if you're playing another character with troublesome vassals (like me). I'm learning slowly to accept this game on its terms, and this is one of them. It seems to me that you should probably pick start locations and situations that match the kind of game you want to actually play. I haven't tried playing in the HRE yet, but I'd assume that one way to move up the ladder is to play a gme specializing in marriages and so forth to line up a dynastic inheritance for the crown. That's at least realistic, and if you wanted to play a Sims:Medieval, that would probably be a challenge given the sheer volume of competitors.

But if you want war and expansion, maybe a minor vassal in the HRE isn't the best option, unless you're content with executing the emporer's will as you build your niche. Don't know, just asking.

[Loderingo]

I have 2 problems with Crown laws as they stand:

1) It goes to a vote to increase crown authority. That's not very realistic. Also most of the time the AI vassals vote in favour which isn't very realistic either.
2) The player never has an incentive to go above medium CA. Partly this is because the crown laws are separate. You can have harsh taxes or high levies at the same time as autonomous vassals, which is very unrealistic.

My solution would be that the ruler can hike CA after 10 years like changing succession laws. Also your tax and levy options would be limited by your crown authority so if you had low CA you could only have low taxes/levies. This would then make the player trade off between high taxes/vassal levies and unhappy vassals or low taxes/levies and happier vassals.