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Thread: Holland strategy?

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by maxirage View Post
    Why would you take Ottoman land anyway? It's different culture, different religion, difficult to transport troops to, takes up precious manpower to defend, and doesn't give you much in return. If you take Jerusalem you at least get the prestige and missionary bonuses, which are very useful.
    In SP, Turkey is one of the easiest places to expand for European minors because of OE's fragility. If you manage to conquer large portions of Turkey, you can move capital there and start expanding into Russia, Persia, and Egypt.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by maxirage View Post
    Why would you take Ottoman land anyway? It's different culture, different religion, difficult to transport troops to, takes up precious manpower to defend, and doesn't give you much in return. If you take Jerusalem you at least get the prestige and missionary bonuses, which are very useful.
    I take everything that is easy to take, one could also release Ottomans as a vassal if you rather want that <_>.

  3. #23
    Also Ottoman has the strait trigger +20% national trade income modifier which is good, and their lands are rather rich, which is good once they get cores.

  4. #24
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    Back to subject this thread is about reliably forming Netherlands as Holland. Not strategies to conquer the middle east just because you can. I know I am not the best player in world but I try not to exploit AI and mechanics too much.
    @chronicler have you EVER played a game without using some mechanic or AI exploit?

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Hootieleece View Post
    Back to subject this thread is about reliably forming Netherlands as Holland. Not strategies to conquer the middle east just because you can. I know I am not the best player in world but I try not to exploit AI and mechanics too much.
    @chronicler have you EVER played a game without using some mechanic or AI exploit?
    What exploits is it you think I'm using? I release vassals and keep those vassals, I don't diplo-annex them later.

    And I get everything I can of value when I grow, it's the only way to expand rapidly.

  6. #26
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    Best moves for Holland:

    Dissolve Alliance with Haiunat ... Insult it down to -50 or so

    Trade and Wait

    Ideally "Claims on Our Rivals" pop at some point during the "Trade and Wait" or shortly afterwards

    Then you are all set to form the Netherlands with annexation wars.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chronicler View Post
    What exploits is it you think I'm using? I release vassals and keep those vassals, I don't diplo-annex them later.

    And I get everything I can of value when I grow, it's the only way to expand rapidly.
    Your general ideas make no sense. Holland conquering OE.How that helps in creating Netherlands I have no idea. Muscovy/Russia vassalizing HRE electors to become HRE Emperor. Russia conquering Tunisia.England conquering HRE electors to become HRE.(This one makes sense if you win war with France) Most of these strategies are sorta viable because religious conversion is too easy. They seem to be human player exploiting poor AI thus sorta gamey.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by anubisfike View Post
    And going mercantilistic in a single player game as Holland is better? Mercantilism isn't even good in singleplayer at all unless you plan to have BB for the entire game, much less when you start with +4 free trade.

    Subjugating Russia and "the muslims"? What the hell are you talking about? Holland has absolutely no manpower and force limits to do anything of that sort unless you are only going for very small nations.

    Your posts are so dumb to the point that I feel that you're just trying to cause problems with all of them.
    No offense but I'm getting quite tired of bashing people for having different ideas, except the mercantile part ( which I only do when I play on owning al ot of COTS) I have done the rest, Keep the Netherlands, Colonize and vassalize everything.
    Making a quick war to vassalize Tver in 1405 and ally with the TO can already get you a vassal with large amounts of troops and a port in a safe area after 1 war with Novgorod.
    DUE TO LOW MANPOWER !!!! it's key to vassalize for larger survival odds.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Hootieleece View Post
    Your general ideas make no sense. Holland conquering OE.How that helps in creating Netherlands I have no idea. Muscovy/Russia vassalizing HRE electors to become HRE Emperor. Russia conquering Tunisia.England conquering HRE electors to become HRE.(This one makes sense if you win war with France) Most of these strategies are sorta viable because religious conversion is too easy. They seem to be human player exploiting poor AI thus sorta gamey.
    You forgot to mention the DoW OE+Bosnia+Serbia in separate wars which is clearly gaming the system.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by brifbates View Post
    You forgot to mention the DoW OE+Bosnia+Serbia in separate wars which is clearly gaming the system.
    Current peace negotiation system has even less sense. 50+% WS for one province (many around the globe) is pointless.

  11. #31
    Waiting for The Miracle anubisfike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dustman View Post
    Current peace negotiation system has even less sense. 50+% WS for one province (many around the globe) is pointless.
    You never reach that kind of warscore for one province unless it has a cot. Even that is pushing it a bit.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by anubisfike View Post
    You never reach that kind of warscore for one province unless it has a cot. Even that is pushing it a bit.
    There are some non-CoT provinces that will situationally cost 50% war score to demand. The situation being a high value province where you have a core but have not yet occupied.

    However, I see no problem at all with the idea that to demand certain concessions/key provinces you have to win a convincing victory. Since you can get 20% just from winning battles and a truckload more from blockades getting to the point where you can demand a 50% peace really isn't all that difficult.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by brifbates View Post
    There are some non-CoT provinces that will situationally cost 50% war score to demand. The situation being a high value province where you have a core but have not yet occupied.

    However, I see no problem at all with the idea that to demand certain concessions/key provinces you have to win a convincing victory. Since you can get 20% just from winning battles and a truckload more from blockades getting to the point where you can demand a 50% peace really isn't all that difficult.


    Yes, that's 120% War Score.

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by uat2d View Post


    Yes, that's 120% War Score.
    How much is that COT worth ?

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Emperor Hans View Post
    How much is that COT worth ?
    YOUR SOUL!

    Back on topic. Holland going to Turkey is not playing to Holland's strengths (I don't mind engaging in fake wars with the crusade target for the tax benefits, but that's not the same thing and it is an exploit). You might get a few vassals out of the arrangement, sure, but they're not going to be high-tax vassals and they won't be able to provide worthwhile support in European wars. And it won't help you form the Netherlands.

    I don't advocate warring without CB early, either (they give you BB like crazy, which absolutely kills your trade). PUs are good if you can get them (but not reliable), but really, what you want to do very early on is to trade like it's going out of style. Make a few guarantees, warnings and alliances so you can collect vassals when you get the chance. Meanwhile, blitz for Trade Tech 7, then get Quest for the New World, start on naval tech, and start colonizing. You may want to set a goal of beating Portugal to the Azores if you're going for the Americas (it chokes back Portuguese expansion across the Atlantic).

    Also, consider a Republic when you reach Government 10. The Netherlands were historically a republic, and DIP 9 will help you get boundary disputes with your neighbors (speeding up the unification).

  16. #36
    Boundary disputes wont make unification go any faster as you need to hold and have cores on two provinces beside your own that are both OPM'ers. In my last few games I have been playing on hard with lowered aggressiveness. This has the tendancy to have Burgundy fail sooner but it also usually leaves both Friesland and especially Utrecht almost impossible to take with a lucky CB. I usually wait until I have build up a large colonial empire in the America's and then declare war without a CB. It means trading suffers a for a few years but being able to form the Netherlands is worth the lost income.

    I also don't get why people PU Friesland. taking it is so much faster and 8BB isn't so terribly difficult to shake off since all your doing is waiting around anyway for stuff to happen.

  17. #37
    This all depends if you plan to stay in the HRE of leave. Both have advantages. If you stay in the HRE you are risking .25 Infamy a year for each unlawful territory and risking the wrath of the Emperor. I had this problem when Burgundy added its Antwerp and Ghent into the empire in the Barbant game. I had to vassalize Holland and Friesland just to keep afloat with the infamy.

    Leaving the HRE means you lose all the benefit. Ive seen arguments for leaving and rejoining but I feel that is gaming the system. I feel the HRE is a elite club if you leave your banned from returning even if you look like a sheep in a wolf's clothing.

  18. #38
    Why do so many people recommend waiting and essentially doing nothing for decades until you luck into getting the territories? Forming the Netherlands as quickly as you can is very powerful due to the free cores you get, since with them you turn into a cored 9 province power. It gives a serious boost to your military and economy so you can become a major European player before nations grow out of your reach.

    Heck, forming the Netherlands before you start colonizing is pretty advantageous in itself. That means you won't get revolt risk in the colonies you owned when you did the tag change. If you developed a colonial empire as Holland and formed the Netherlands, have fun managing revolts until the colonies core.

    Taking the two necessary territories through vassalage without CB costs 12 infamy. With CB, it costs 8. If you can't spare that, you're saying that preventing 4 BB is more important than getting early cores on 5 extra provinces. What justification is there for that line of thought?

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by maxirage View Post
    Why do so many people recommend waiting and essentially doing nothing for decades until you luck into getting the territories? Forming the Netherlands as quickly as you can is very powerful due to the free cores you get, since with them you turn into a cored 9 province power. It gives a serious boost to your military and economy so you can become a major European player before nations grow out of your reach.

    Heck, forming the Netherlands before you start colonizing is pretty advantageous in itself. That means you won't get revolt risk in the colonies you owned when you did the tag change. If you developed a colonial empire as Holland and formed the Netherlands, have fun managing revolts until the colonies core.

    Taking the two necessary territories through vassalage without CB costs 12 infamy. With CB, it costs 8. If you can't spare that, you're saying that preventing 4 BB is more important than getting early cores on 5 extra provinces. What justification is there for that line of thought?
    I think indifference is part of the cause. I've played a Holland game where I didn't actually bother to form Netherlands because I was more interested to be a peaceful colonizer.

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by maxirage View Post
    Why do so many people recommend waiting and essentially doing nothing for decades until you luck into getting the territories? Forming the Netherlands as quickly as you can is very powerful due to the free cores you get, since with them you turn into a cored 9 province power. It gives a serious boost to your military and economy so you can become a major European player before nations grow out of your reach.

    Heck, forming the Netherlands before you start colonizing is pretty advantageous in itself. That means you won't get revolt risk in the colonies you owned when you did the tag change. If you developed a colonial empire as Holland and formed the Netherlands, have fun managing revolts until the colonies core.

    Taking the two necessary territories through vassalage without CB costs 12 infamy. With CB, it costs 8. If you can't spare that, you're saying that preventing 4 BB is more important than getting early cores on 5 extra provinces. What justification is there for that line of thought?
    Infamy = loss of merchant chance and compete chance = less money from trading.

    Provinces you need = HRE. HRE provinces = .25 infamy per province unless it cores. So unless you have a higher infamy loss than .5 per year, you're gaining infamy. In the end, the amount of infamy you gain from taking those 2 provinces without cores (vassaling + waiting for mission that gives free core/claims on rivals/other missions that give cores) gives you 12.5 infamy per province, from the time that you take them to the time that they're cored. On top of the 6 you got from DOWing without a CB and annexing without a CB.

    As a free trading nation, whose economy is mostly based on how many cots you can sit in with 5 merchants, that's a lot of infamy. If you do go for the two provinces, sure you can form the Netherlands fast, and if that's what you want to do, great. But there is the loss of tech is quite large. In fact, when I'm playing Holland, by the time I start colonising everyone else in the world is around 2-3 levels lower in everything compared to me before I start colonising.

    This is why people advocate "sitting around". You get a large head start on colonising, your military is near unstoppable and you have enough cash to afford everything.

    Now, if you want a reliable, fast way to form Netherlands, it's a bad idea. Sure you lose out on some tech, but if forming Netherlands is your goal then just DOWing everyone you can while the Emperor is busy is probably best. I usually wait until I have a unit advantage though, as it doesn't take long for me to get ahead, especially when I'm pumping everything I have into Land tech. Temporarily grabbing military NIs first and then switching them later helps too.

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