Super France vs The World

[ufos8mycow]

Loaded the new 5.3.3. onto the beta patched version and went with England. Normal difficulty/no Lucky nations. Both my and France's Land Tech is the same and we use the same type of troops.


It's about 1385 and I own around 11 provinces on the continent from an early war to go along with Ireland and Austria(through PU). I'm also in a PU with Norway.

I notice France has gotten itself into a war with Castile, Lorraine, Bohemia, Savoy & several OPMs. I decide to grab a few cores from France and build up my troops to 142 units for the war. Grab several average Generals that I can afford. I have around 55k manpower and enough ships to rule the waves. I declare war and attack. Checking the ledger I see France has around 80k troops to go along with about 40-50k for it's vassals. It has about 55k manpower. Castile has around 80k, Bohemia has about 70k & the rest of the original attackers have about 50k. That's 340k troops against France's 130k.

As normal France's vassals declare and I move into their territories. The other attackers have troops all over and I am able to keep my troops together to go after France's troops and whittle their manpower down for the long siege. A year or so into the war and France has destroyed everyone. Castile is on the run and down to maybe 15k troops. Bohemia loses all of it's troops and proceeds to build more and is a non-factor the rest of the way. Savoy and Lorraine fall easily to sieges. My troops are down to 35k and 2k manpower.

Meanwhile France has 65k troops and 55k manpower. Her vassals are running around with 6-10 unit 'death stacks'.

After 3 hours trying different strategies I load a save game as France and things are not good. Their leader is 8/9/9.(The regency council for him was 9/9/9) The Heir is 9/9/8. France has 7 Generals and an Admiral. All of them are 4-5's.(France has 7% Army Tradition and low Naval. I can't see how they could get so many top Generals.) No matter what I do I cannot beat them. No one can. I've beat them up so much that I have 35 War Score(with no occupied cities) and they won't accept a White Peace. I've even let the game go without joining the war and they destroy all the big boys put together.


Anyone else having problems against France with 5.3.3? I was playing 5.3.2 a few days ago as Castile and I mopped the floor with them several times without trouble. I've played England many many times and have always smacked them around with average trouble. Has something changed between the two versions?

Anything I can do to 'soften' them a little?

Thanks!

[Choccookies]

Lucky nations?

Sounds like their generals are making a big difference (as they should). With a king that good and good quality generals its not surprising that they win. Fighting wars that large can only be helping with their military tradition as well, as long as their economy is holding up to it. What sort of state is burgundy / savoy / flanders in?

Also what national ideas are you/they using

[chemical_art]

In my games France always is a powerhouse in military.

It goes in part in their national ideas. They always get military drill, giving their troops a key edge.

They usually second either get grand army or rarely military tradition (they about 50% of the time get both after their third pic). This makes them either have a large army with huge reserves or an even more well trained army that at peace maintains their tradition and during war causes it to skyrocket.

The end result is that France will fight with better quality then its neighbors, for a longer time then it's neighbors (or with better generals). It allows them to absolutely dominate land wars. After their third idea, they steamroll in every way except their economy (which is good on its own) and only another nation either dedicated to land fighting or with some other bonuses can hope to stop them. After their third idea normally I only see a strong, united spain beat france due to economic dominance already in the new world, or a strong HRE emperor.

[ufos8mycow]

Thanks for the replies.

France has National Conscript NA only (I took Grand Army). Their manpower is NOT going down much at all. It's only been 40-50 years since game start and they haven't expanded other than a few minor wars against OPMs and one short war against Aragon. They should not be able to afford so many good Generals and they all shouldn't turn out THAT good with their small Tradition. To grab a 4-5 General you need around 70-80 Tradition(I think). And they have 8 of them...

Still historically I doubt France with all her edges would be able to survive and win a war against Castile, England, Bohemia and several other countries at once. No matter how good a General he is not going to win a war against the combined armies of 10 countries (including two 'super-powers' & the Emperor of the HRE).

To put this in perspective...

As I said above France and vassals have about 140k standing army and maybe 110k manpower for a total of 250k total possible soldiers.

England, Bohemia, Castile, Savoy, Lorraine, Norway & the OPMs have around a 350k standing army with maybe another 250k manpower for a total of 600k possible soldiers.

One year or so into the war and France has destroyed over 500k soldiers (standing & manpower) while losing 15k themselves (while maintaining 55k manpower mind you). I was sieging a province with 18k troops and a general and France waddles over with a 14k stack and attacks me. I lose 12k troops defending and they lose 1-2k. They follow me on my escape and I lose another 18 units.

So 500k deaths against 15k deaths. In Western Europe. In 1385.

Could this all be caused by them being Lucky? I checked the savegame in an editor and noticed it says Lucky=Yes. I thought I had turned it off. And is there a way to turn off Lucky Nations in a savegame?

I have played England enough that I know how to beat France. This time (after loading 5.3.3) I have no chance. I would expect this type of challenge on Very Hard Difficulty but I'm playing 'Normal'.

Or any ideas on how I can soften them a little? I'm not looking to play a stressful game. I just want to paint much of the world red.

P.S. On my Castile game France exploded in the 1500's. The whole country went into revolt and GIANT stacks of rebels took over France entirely. The rebels had stacks of 75-100 units running around. Like 10 of them. I had 250k troops and the rebels in France were pushing 1 million troops.

P.S.S. Burgundy is quiet with 5-6 provinces after a short war with Venice. Flanders has 5 provinces and occasionally sends a spy at me but no wars. Savoy has 5 provinces occupied by France and no army.

[Choccookies]

What about the land tech difference, do they by any chance have an upgraded unit type compared to what you are using ?

Them being lucky gives their leaders an additional +1+1 fire/shock as well as reduced attrition. Never underestimate the difference a good leader makes, especially in the early game. Also the way you are counting army sizes and losses is a little strange, you can't directly fight with manpower, its definitely essential for reinforcements but I wouldn't consider it 'possible soldiers' that doesn't accurately reflect force limits, maintance etc.. It sounds like france has 140k against a combined attacking force of 350k split over a lot of different attackers and borders. Those are difficult odds but by no means overwhelming and being the defender goes in their favour in terms of reinforcements and supply limits.

The most important part here is to remember numbers aren't everything. How you use them is far more important. If you can't defeat them in a pitched battle then don't offer to fight one. Make use of your navies to blockade and raid their coastline, spies as well if you have them.

All in all it sounds like an interesting war to fight, have fun with it

[gigau]

I'll have to investigate that (but now, got to go to bed), but, in the mean time, and for the record, i promise that this issue you report has nothing to do with the fact that i'm french

[DDRJake]

I'd rather France wasn't nerfed. They are a pretty consistant end boss. A human player or very lucky AI England can break France in the first few years but once France has retrieved all of its cores it is near impossible to take down decisively. They will always have more money, more manpower and more troops in reserve.

Hilariously, the most brutal victory I ever won against fully formed France in Meiou was while playing as Granada. I was able to use our mountainous border to my advantage. In Meiou, unlike Devine Wind, War Exhaustion hurts morale, so there's another reason to keep your WE low and theirs sky high.

[gigau]

Can we pretend i'm french, and stop saying "the frog"/"froggies"/..., pretty please


I don't want to nerf France either, but i think there should be some bad situations like the Religious Wars to slow it down a bit.

[Blxz]

Aren't you belgian but living in France?

[gigau]

Aren't you belgian but living in France?

It's actually the exact opposite

Born in Nice (French Riviera) from Normand descent, living in Charleroi and working in Brussels.


And in any case, i really don't fancy any call name on any nationality... even on english people

[Piconte]

I think your game was probably just a chain of coincidences making France the ultimate powerpool. (their leaders are absurd)

In almost all of my games France does very well in the beginning and by 1500 or something they tend to get in wars with too many neighbors, which just destroys them. (and once France looses one time, its just an inevitable crash towards nothingness for them, due to rebels and constant wars) Though if they don't you really have a fun enemy in the end.
--> so please do not nerf them in any way!

When I fight France (when they are doing well) they will almost always have more than you. Key factors to win are to have full quality, have good generals (always glorious arms, never take grand army^^) and last let them attack you.
In my last England game I had about 60k army while they had 90k + 30k vassals. It pretty much went exactly the other way from what you told (I lost 1-2k in a battle while they lost a 15k stack)

Quality is key!

[DukemikeIII]

I always see a france thats military iw WAY to big for its time. Standing armies was not that common...yes France and Hungary had them in the mis 1400s, but hungarys rather large standing army was 30k men, france had about 50k men in the Hundred Yeas war and the ottomans musterd 100k for the Siege of Vienna, Milan and Venice had over 30k in the 14 and 15th centuries. The thirty years war saw armies up to 150k from France and 300k from spain, including the 75k from Netherland ans the 50k from Italy...so this 250k standing army is crazy until at war, is there a wa so that max army size gets much smaller during peace time and certain NI will increase the size of peace time armies.

[gigau]

Piconte : that seems historical to me indeed, when looking at the HYW.

Dukemike : the problem will be that the AI will be unable to cope wiht that, i'm afraid.

[Tongera]

I have just seen France get taken down by England, Castille, Portugal, Austria, Aragon, Flanders, Papal States, Milan, Genoa and Bohemia, Is that normal?

[birdboy2000]

France usually manages to blob in my games, but it did a fair amount of that historically as well. I've seen it lose wars, but I have no idea *how* looking at the size of its armies. Does it *really* need grand army as its first NI ? :P

[gigau]

I have just seen France get taken down by England, Castille, Portugal, Austria, Aragon, Flanders, Papal States, Milan, Genoa and Bohemia, Is that normal?

Nope. But that happens, in my games, when England becomes Papal Controller and has France excommunicated.

France usually manages to blob in my games, but it did a fair amount of that historically as well. I've seen it lose wars, but I have no idea *how* looking at the size of its armies. Does it *really* need grand army as its first NI ? :P

Not as its first... indeed.

[ufos8mycow]

Well the original game had Lucky Nations set so I decided to start a new game to see how France would be without the lucky flag.

I start the Bull campaign. Since England and France start out at war I decide to send one 17 unit stack to Paris while they attack my southern holdings. I occupy Paris in 1357 and the 'Accept Our Defeat' & 'The English at Notre Dame ede Paris' events fire. France ceases to exist and forms my new vassal Dauphine. No Peace Treaty at all. 10 short years later I annex them (taking a 21 BB hit) and I form the Anglo-French Union. A few years after that and I have inherited Burgundy. Now I have a huge pink flesh colored empire spanning from Ireland to Italy with a finger of pink into Castile territory. It just turned 1402.

Lucky Nations turned on and France is a monster. Lucky Nations turned off and France is VERY unlucky.

I don't know what to make of France now.



P.S. Can someone tell me how to change the color of the Anglo-French nation? The color it has now is the same color as an average white persons left butt cheek. It's a fleshy colored pink.

[DDRJake]

meiou/common/countries/[your country's name here].txt

color = { 155 147 180 } where the numbers are the Red, green and blue values.

[gigau]

For next version, changing the color to

color = { 79  9  182 }

Used purple, a mix of the English red and the French blue.

[drake000666]

Got to agree with France being a Super Super power even before it unites it becomes a super power and when it unites it can take every nation in the world on and win Think when the map was mad to many lands make up France giving it crazy manpower and money from the goods it trade

Have played a few games from start and France is close to united to within 100 years, as I see it its way to easy to united France and when it is united it gets way to much out of it making them way more power full then what they would have in history


One idea might be take the cores that it have on its vassals away, that would slow their unite down a lot and make it harder.