Any units or combos too strong / too weak?

The Priestess of Agrela is a very powerful unit in the late game much undervalued by many players and not just for the AoE healing spell, although that is good. Being a healer gives her access to the very powerful auras of 30% elemental or death resistance at level 4. These auras apply to herself and any units on adjacent hexes (the megahex) and make assualting an AI capital much easier as it counters the capital's new AoE damage effect and any towers. Auras stack with a units own resistances and are very useful for boosting units that are a bit low and saves a huge amount in expensive perks on many units. Choose the death aura if your next opponent is undead and elemental for the human or monster opponents. These auras are particularly good on her as she has more HP and better basic resistances than most other healers (clerics and shamans) and can venture into risky situations to provide that close support. At level 5 she gets a healing aura giving +5 healing to herself and all adjacent hexes, what more could you want

And her damage dealing is exceptional if you are dealing with undead enemies. She does a lot of ranged spirit and life damage, and can one shot a basic vampire or especially one of those super tough veteran skeletons with 140 resistance to melee and missile, immune to death, and 60% elemental resistance, they are normally pretty tough. But their -25% vulnerability to life damage means they take 42% extra from her life damage component. So she also rates as an Undead "tank destroyer" :laugh: the best in the game.

True Agrela is very nice to have, the perks that gives % Power do increase the healing and at high level she can have auras, still dont know if the healing power perk affect the healing aura, Blessing of Life in the beginning is so powerfull. The only reason i upgrade Healers to Pristess of Agrela if the Healers are at least level 5.

From Creature to Fighter hmy:, so wich level should i upgrade to get the best of the two? Does anyone knows other unit that change class too?

Servent of Lunord is quite powerfull too, hit and run perk with invisibility. But i think they are better to stand still and wait to ambush until the player moves closer, so they can hit and run to safety. Plus the healing debuff -89% from healing(normal units are dispelled at 3 turns) and if affects a healer class its healing power is destroyed because its incurable.

All the damge from skill can be increase from buff and perks that affect that type of damage % Power does increases too, for example AoE from Liches can be buff if you have Vampiric Weapon (Death Magic + Vampiric) or Grum-Gog Death Enchant Weapon.

Druid are much better then the Beastmaster, much more base damage at level 2 you can get 20% of elemental as Missile and a better summon unit.

I think Krolm Housecarl and Paladin of Life are the worst temple units.

Healing power perk doesn't affect healing aura. But it seems that the death and elemental resistance aura is stackable if you put those Priestesses of Agrela close to each other, other units aura also stack, be it aura gained from perks or aura gained from spell buff.

Krolm rune spell aura also stack, it greatly increase damage if put close to each other. However it seems that it is destructible, though my runes never get attacked by the AI, and if it can be attacked, maybe the runes can be buffed with invisibility.

I believe that this aura stacking is a bug, because these aura stacking is very problematic especially at late game, it greatly reduce enemy capability to deal damage or greatly increase the user capability to deal damage, and if exploited it break the game.

From Creature to Fighter , so wich level should i upgrade to get the best of the two? Does anyone knows other unit that change class too?

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When to upgrade? I think that depends on your situation.

From what i know, only court werewolf can cross class.

Creature unique perk is the +death damage and +melee damage, then frenzy and survival, but frenzy and survival can only be gained at level 8 and 9. I suggest to upgrade at level 7 for decent benefit, right after the death damage bonus (which is gained at level 7), you can wait at level 9 after you get frenzy and survival if you want maximum benefit.

However you can neglect this, and just upgrade it at any level you want after you purchase all Creature equipment perk, i mean perks gained by paying gold.

I recommend creating pure Wolf of Helia if you want your game to be balanced and fun.

I'm sure this is a bug, because it allows a unit to become too powerful.

add:

All the damge from skill can be increase from buff and perks that affect that type of damage % Power does increases too, for example AoE from Liches can be buff if you have Vampiric Weapon (Death Magic + Vampiric) or Grum-Gog Death Enchant Weapon.

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I guess you haven't explore the deepest depth of the game.

Damage of skills or abilities can be buffed with any damage type and any power bonus increase. However abilities that have original damage type as magic (Life, Death, Spirit, Elemental) can only be buffed by magic damage type. Physical original damage type (Melee, Missile) can be buffed by any damage type. This rules only apply to abilities. Normal attack can be buffed by any damage type.

atlatea said:

From what i know, only court werewolf can cross class...
I recommend creating pure Wolf of Helia if you want your game to be balanced and fun.

I'm sure this is a bug, because it allows a unit to become too powerful.

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The Human healer unit can switch to the caster type by upgrading to a Sister of Krypta. I don't know of any others at the moment. With the addition of the Serpent DLC, this means that the Healer-Sister unit can obtain an additional +20% unit power perk. I was very unimpressed with the Sisters of Krypta as a temple unit, and don't think it is OP compared to the reality of other temple units.

Re it being a bug.... why would it be? It is a powerful combo that takes a lot of time and effort to set up. A large portion of the game is about building uber-units of doom. It seems consistent with the game to me.

All the damge from skill can be increase from buff and perks that affect that type of damage % Power does increases too, for example AoE from Liches can be buff if you have Vampiric Weapon (Death Magic + Vampiric) or Grum-Gog Death Enchant Weapon.

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That has not a question.

Creature unique perk is the +death damage and +melee damage, then frenzy and survival, but frenzy and survival can only be gained at level 8 and 9. I suggest to upgrade at level 7 for decent benefit, right after the death damage bonus (which is gained at level 7), you can wait at level 9 after you get frenzy and survival if you want maximum benefit.

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thank you for the info.

Gonna try multiple Healing aura then

@Merephet
You're welcome.

You can skip survival, i mean fleet of foot if you want the +melee damage from fighter class. But frenzy is highly recommended.

The Human healer unit can switch to the caster type by upgrading to a Sister of Krypta. I don't know of any others at the moment. With the addition of the Serpent DLC, this means that the Healer-Sister unit can obtain an additional +20% unit power perk. I was very unimpressed with the Sisters of Krypta as a temple unit, and don't think it is OP compared to the reality of other temple units.

Re it being a bug.... why would it be? It is a powerful combo that takes a lot of time and effort to set up. A large portion of the game is about building uber-units of doom. It seems consistent with the game to me.

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I agree, Sister of krypta is a little underpowered in my list compared to other temple units.

Why it takes a long time? The combined level up perks from creature and fighter class doesn't make the cross class Wolf of Helia uber, actually it doesn't add much to its power.

It is those perks that is purchased by gold that make them super uber. And having all Creature and Fighter perks available is not as long as leveling a unit from level 1 to level 7, it is very fast. By turn 100-150 you can have all purchasable perks for Creature and Fighter. Sure, the purpose of the game is making uber unit, but if that unit is far more uber than the other uber units, all player will aim for that unit, and now the game just become a spam of that super uber unit, do we want another spam x unit to win the game? Definitely no, especially in multiplayer.

Maybe of all WMotA players, few do this cross classing thing, even fewer knows this, but i've done that several time, at first it was very fun, but then it quickly become the most boring game ever.

Re the time issue: It takes several turns to level up a Court Werewolf to get the +30% damage perk. It takes several turns to buff the unit with lategame enchantments (Levi, Vamp, Fire, Life, Frost). It also takes a pile of gold to purchase the creature perks and then upgrade to a WoH and buy the fighter perks.

4 turns to train the Court Wolf, 7 turns minimum for a level up (with no Combat). The magic buffing takes between 3-6 turns depending on Agile Mind, and you forego any other spells during those turns. My Large/Huge games end around 90 turns- after that I'm just messing about, clearing Portal Worlds, perhaps attempting to spawn an avatar.

To me, spending about 1/9th of the "crucial" game turns building an uber-unit is a respectable time investment. My buffed Adepts of Lunord generally have 125-ish attack power. Does a Court-WoH hybrid easily eclipse that with the creature/fighter perks?

UncleJJ said:

The Priestess of Agrela is a very powerful unit in the late game much undervalued by many players and not just for the AoE healing spell, although that is good. Being a healer gives her access to the very powerful auras of 30% elemental or death resistance at level 4. These auras apply to herself and any units on adjacent hexes (the megahex) and make assualting an AI capital much easier as it counters the capital's new AoE damage effect and any towers. Auras stack with a units own resistances and are very useful for boosting units that are a bit low and saves a huge amount in expensive perks on many units. Choose the death aura if your next opponent is undead and elemental for the human or monster opponents. These auras are particularly good on her as she has more HP and better basic resistances than most other healers (clerics and shamans) and can venture into risky situations to provide that close support. At level 5 she gets a healing aura giving +5 healing to herself and all adjacent hexes, what more could you want

And her damage dealing is exceptional if you are dealing with undead enemies. She does a lot of ranged spirit and life damage, and can one shot a basic vampire or especially one of those super tough veteran skeletons with 140 resistance to melee and missile, immune to death, and 60% elemental resistance, they are normally pretty tough. But their -25% vulnerability to life damage means they take 42% extra from her life damage component. So she also rates as an Undead "tank destroyer" :laugh: the best in the game.

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The perk auras are another reason to use priestesses and healer units in general. I do think clerics and healers need a small cost reduction, and maybe a maintenance reduction for the cleric building.

As a side effect of worshiping Agrela you also get some really nice spells and access to some of Dauros' most useful spells, at least when the AI learns to dispell and/or playing multiplayer.

The Apprentice said:

4 turns to train the Court Wolf, 7 turns minimum for a level up (with no Combat). The magic buffing takes between 3-6 turns depending on Agile Mind, and you forego any other spells during those turns. My Large/Huge games end around 90 turns- after that I'm just messing about, clearing Portal Worlds, perhaps attempting to spawn an avatar.

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Same, by the time it even made sense to upgrade my Court Werewolves the game was way past over.

Also I didn't realize that not being able to enchant Helia units is a bug. Once that gets fixed Wolves of Helia should actually be pretty good.

The Apprentice said:

The Human healer unit can switch to the caster type by upgrading to a Sister of Krypta. I don't know of any others at the moment. With the addition of the Serpent DLC, this means that the Healer-Sister unit can obtain an additional +20% unit power perk. I was very unimpressed with the Sisters of Krypta as a temple unit, and don't think it is OP compared to the reality of other temple units.

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Considering how faithful all the units are here to how they were in the Majesty games, I think they messed up on Sisters of Krypta (Beast Masters too). I mean in Majesty 2 they had a very similar attack but could summon a lich and have 3 or 4 skeletons out at a time, so it's weird that they only get one lousy skeleton in this game. They should really get something worth taking a turn to summon, or at least let you attack and summon in the same turn.

To me, spending about 1/9th of the "crucial" game turns building an uber-unit is a respectable time investment. My buffed Adepts of Lunord generally have 125-ish attack power. Does a Court-WoH hybrid easily eclipse that with the creature/fighter perks?

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Damage wise, without using any level up perks, Court-WoH hybrid does a little more damage than Adept of Lunord, about 5-10 higher if i remember right. If you level up the Court to level 7 to get all damage perk for Creature, it does about 20 more damage. Damage wise it doesn't add much, considering how high late game resistance to all damage (except spirit damage). If you level it to level 8 which is the best perk before upgrading it to WoH imo, you get frenzy, this basically just turn Court-WoH hybrid as Black Minotaur, though Court-WoH hybrid is a bit better.

Defense wise, this is where it differ, Court-WoH hybrid is tougher than pure WoH or Adept of Lunord. I'll just list all perks that distinguish Court-WoH hybrid from pure WoH, perhaps i should say affect not distinguish. Whether those differences is good or not are up to each individual player.
1) Perk : Silver Brewery (Creature, Healer)
2) Perk : Silver Weapons (Fighter, Ranged)
3) Perk : Enchanted Weapons (Fighter, Ranged, Caster)
4) Perk : Ghost Armor (Creature, Caster)

Court-WoH hybrid can have all those 4. Pure WoH can have 2 and 3, same with Adept of Lunord (both are Fighter).

Now regarding why i said that is a bug, there are 3 simple reasons.
(1) If we combine level up perks (especially Frenzy perk) + purchased perk the result is ridiculously strong WoH.
(2) By the time you can achieve reason number 1, it is already late or even too late, i mean your game is already over or anything like that.
(3) Most of the time if not all the time, if you want WoH, you better keep your Court Werewolf then buy pure WoH rather than upgrading your Court to WoH, because Court Werewolf is as useful as WoH, having both of them, means you have 2 WoH, i mean upgrading Court Werewolf to WoH so that you can have uber WoH is complete waste (both of time and of resources).
(4) All those 3 reasons make me think that this cross classing feature is done by accident (by the developer), a.k.a a bug.

Caraval (the "cheapest" sea unit) are expensive, take long to build, have a high upkeep, are incredibly weak in attack and hitpoints and very limited movement compared to other (so, non-naval) units.

Totally useless. Maybe something should be done about that? Or is anyone actually using them for something (aside the AI of course, building fleets just to be demolished without taking damage :/)...

I use them for quick scouting early.

But even group of 5 (yes, I did this once), will get destroyed quickly by sea monsters, or will win with lots of loses.

Ship in general in this game is weak vs non ship, because its purpose is just for guarding your sea teritorry or creating a blockade. Remember that unit will turn to super weak transport ship unless it is a flyer, all transport ship will lose easily to even the weakest battleship like Caravel, that's why all battleship in this game are weak vs non ship unit.

But Water walk and Levitation destroy the original purpose of battleships.

Solution: either tweak battleships or make Water Walk and Levitation a turn based spell with long casting time. I hate Levitation and Water walk, they screw unit role, while unit role in this game is extremely important. Imagine if levitation or water walk are turn based, when your unit buffed by it cross the water they fly/water walking, they will defeat any battleship, but if it's just 2 turn long, after that 2 turn, they turn into transport ship, therefore they become easy prey for battleships. This will make ship unit important.

If you also look at status of flyer unit, most flyer unit are weaker than their non flyer counterpart, but they always cost more, this means that the ability to fly is highly valued by developer and also by us all, and indeed it is, but the spell called Levitation destroy this. Solution: either nerf Levitation or reduce the cost of flyer, or tweak flyer unit in general.

There should be thread about spell balance, because some spells in this game are ridiculously better than the rest (all kind of enchant spells), and some even destroy game balance by screwing unit role like those two i mentioned.

Other solution to this, change casting system so we can cast more than 1 spell/turn. If enemy player levitate 5 of his unit, and moving those 5 to destroy my ship, when it is my turn i can dispell all 5 levitation on them, and they turn to transport ship, then my battleship will take care the rest, making ships in this game important.

atlatea, I agree with you on the way Levitation and Water Walking make flyers and ships redundant and elite units and temple units using these spells are way overpowered. My solution to that problem would be to give a land unit using those spells a big disadvantage when fighting, at least -50% and perhaps -75%, for fighting outside their normal element. A bit like the minus they would get for fighting on a swamp, only more so.

I agree UncleJJ, that is also a reasonable solution. They get penalty because they are not used to fighting using other element style, imagine a warrior that get levitated by his lord to fight a dragon, he never get used to aerial combat and never receive any training in aerial combat, so the dragon should easily win against him. The simplest way to put this logic in the game is by doing what you said, nice solution UncleJJ.

Just a quick question - anyone knows what will happen with levitating or water walking unit if the spell will dispelled over the water? If just converted to transport, that's not fun. But if it's drowned, I imagine ships will be much more useful after AI will learn how to properly dispel.

atlatea said:

There should be thread about spell balance, because some spells in this game are ridiculously better than the rest (all kind of enchant spells), and some even destroy game balance by screwing unit role like those two i mentioned.

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Good idea. I haven't had experience with most spells though yet to give a proper indication for spells. I generally stick to healing because of the cast limit...

I still think with that changed ships would be useless, a bunch of archers on the shore is still more dangerous. For humans; Either you get one ship (8 damage) or 2 hunters (2x7) for the same upkeep (and less cost, just 1 turn more to produce though). And you can get them around the entire map for that too. And retreat them more easy in friendly territory than a ship that's pretty much always exposed.

-50% for using water walking sounds a bit harsh. Little less for levitation, but still. What's the upkeep?
Invisibility (2 mana) is also omnipotent on ranged/magic units against the AI, but that doesn't really make it that way against humans, who obviously will dispell a node from which an invisible attack came from...

stealthnsk said:

Just a quick question - anyone knows what will happen with levitating or water walking unit if the spell will dispelled over the water?

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I just tested this for you... the unit will DROWN (tested with leviation).
Even if you have a harbor.

Yeah it is drowned. But if you dispell it your self, they can turn to transport ship.

But when you levitate that transport ship, they won't turn to your unit, it's just a flying transport ship. So you need to embark it first before you levitate it again.

UncleJJ said:

atlatea, I agree with you on the way Levitation and Water Walking make flyers and ships redundant and elite units and temple units using these spells are way overpowered. My solution to that problem would be to give a land unit using those spells a big disadvantage when fighting, at least -50% and perhaps -75%, for fighting outside their normal element. A bit like the minus they would get for fighting on a swamp, only more so.

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Why? Such spells help to move the game towards its end- Levitating Temple Units ARE hard to beat if you don't have comparable forces. Even more so if they are Vamped. But why is that a bad thing?

In most games, for a player to have levitation and a temple unit, a fair bit of research must have occurred. Isn't the point of the game to build a powerful force? In MP, human players should be making intelligent research choices- like dispel and counterspell. Frankly, I will be very surprised if Agile Mind gets cast in MP more than rarely. That means that the "big spells," like Flame, Vamp, and Levi will take more than one turn to cast. Krolm worship (with his cheap divine counterspell) and Dauros worship will probably be more common as players react.

In the meantime, players who opt for low-tier zerg style will have viable strategies to try out- isolating the capital means no credible danger. There are tools already in the game to minimize/prevent flying temple units of doom. If a player can pull them off, why shouldn't they win?

tl;dr A flying Vamp Adept of Lunord is like a nuke in Civ- first player to get has a huge advantage. But the other players have only themselves to blame for the player getting that far, outside of truly unusual map positions.