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Thread: Do the spanish kingdoms survive in the new patches?

  1. #61
    Captain KevUK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Corelay View Post

    KevUK- Holy Orders will wipe those Muslim stacks without breaking a sweat. Though if the random things are against you, that will sink any game of course.
    Yeah, I sussed this a while ago, but when your 4 years old and your piety is like 50, then you cant get them. Yes, its mainly a random chance that this happened (its a game afterall), but the Moors were sure hard to beat come middle 12thC, easy at first mind, but 100 years into the game I was seeking HRE as allies. Very interesting game, probably the most interesting game of CK2 I have had.

  2. #62
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    ..Although, from what I have played of CK2 (England, Wales, Poland, Castille), Iberia seems the best experience, probably the most challenging, of them all. Constant Holy Wars, trying to claim ASAP Leon, Navarre, Aragon and Galacia (sp?), as well as find other European alliances (I found England good, and was working towards HRE when it went down the pan); it really made it difficult. I dont think though that the Moors should be hindered (am I saying that?), or penalised - I found it challenging and hard work building up and I did quite well. Dont nerf it.

  3. #63
    As Leon (or Castille) it comes to kill your brother as quickly as posible (sad but true). Then you have chances against smaller muslims. Declare Holy War when they are fighting each other. Don't miss any oportunity. I played less than 100 years and only muslims left in the neigbourhood are Mauretania duchies (I usurped kingdom title).

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pan Chinczyk View Post
    As Leon (or Castille) it comes to kill your brother as quickly as posible (sad but true). Then you have chances against smaller muslims. Declare Holy War when they are fighting each other. Don't miss any oportunity. I played less than 100 years and only muslims left in the neigbourhood are Mauretania duchies (I usurped kingdom title).
    Right, at about 100 hrs into the game since I brought it I am still learning. I noticed that they did have internal conflicts, so this is interesting. It was my first game as Castille, and they were easy to beat at the beginning and I think this needs to be exploited early game. Thanks for the info.

  5. #65
    I meant that you are heir of your brothers kingdom. Kings of Leon and Castille are brothers and aren't married. They are heirs to one anothers kingdoms. After patch 1.5 its sooo easy to kill someone using plot mechanics. Without bloody war, within first couple of days in the game, I got kingdom of Castille. Leon + Castille is quite a nice power against this muslims just below my borders (I forgot their name). They got one or two duchies. I just waited till muslims were fighting. If they are at war, there is small chance that anyone will help during Holy War.
    I find Iberia very rewarding and enjoyable. After I finished my first game (as Poland, conquered most lands in europe and put Piast on HRE throne) I tried playing England and found it soo boring. Spreading Christianity across northern Africa is fun

  6. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by Corelay View Post
    I don't think I ever suggested them doing nothing. I said they should do things at the right time. Iberia is easy for a human, so in theory it could become easier for the AI.

    Regardless, their inability to understand the danger of holy wars is the only actual problem here. The fact that they normally lose the war with the Muslims is pretty much intended.

    KevUK- Holy Orders will wipe those Muslim stacks without breaking a sweat. Though if the random things are against you, that will sink any game of course.
    well, i wouldnt call it EASY for a human(ireland is easy. the duke of lancaster is quite easy. sure, it isnt exactly hard, but certainly not easy), but beside that, wars tend to end before the AI can win his war, resulting in him getting dogpiled anyway. therefor, you'll either want them to do nothing(save for taking out 1 county states during wars) as otherwise they will get dogpiled. or, you wnat them to attack muslims when theyre waging war. theyll get dogpiled after their war is over regardless, or attack 1 county msulim states while the muslims are fighting. this can be pulled off exactly 3 times. also, IF they do nothing they are STILL going to get dogpiled. as muslim after muslim will declare his holy war against them. end result: theyll lose. as theyre about defeated at the time holy orders arrive. IF they survive that long.

    im still for a weak holy order, unable to survive mid-late game, unable to steamroll muslims AT ALL, just to give the early weak cristians a backbone against small-mid muslim muslim invasions(ofc. it wont help at all when the shia calipahte wants you dead). maybe a mix between better AI and a slight buff. but thats for PI to decide.

  7. #67
    Captain Corelay's Avatar
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    No, all I want them to do is a. bear in mind that their enemies will ally when they call a Holy War and b. use De Jure claims rather than Holy Wars when possible. Possibly also to know when it is a good time to assault a holding, though that's a wider issue.

    That the AI does not do these things is the only area where they might be any sort of problem here. If they then lose because the Muslims are much more powerful then... well, that's how it should be.

    I don't quite understand your analysis,, I am afraid. It implies a human cannot win, because the situation is the same for humans. The fact is, good timing wins you that war with ease.
    Last edited by Corelay; 24-05-2012 at 17:34.

  8. #68
    When I played my first game as Barcelona, I didn't know the Spanish kingdoms were impossible. I survived quite well. I fabricated claims on small Islamic states surrounding me, knowing a Holy War would bring the wrath of the much stronger states to the south. I eventually became a force to be reckoned with, and when a much stronger nation declared "Holy War" on me I would try to delay their sieges as long as possible so that another Catholic nation may save me. Worked quite well for awhile, that is until my leader died and his hier considered his liege to be the Duchy of Toscany, so I was absorbed into the Holy Roman Empire. Other HRE states ganged up on me and I wasn't able to defend myself effectively so I lost.

    At least it wasn't to the Muslims.
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  9. #69
    Captain Corelay's Avatar
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    You fabricated claims as Barcelona? That's not normally necessary; they have De Jure claims on most stuff near them, and the more they conquer, the more claims they get. They can also Holy War the tiny Muslim states nearby that they don't have other claims on and rush-win before any coalition forms against them. Barcelona's a very entertaining starting point for the game, actually.

  10. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by Corelay View Post
    No, all I want them to do is a. bear in mind that their enemies will ally when they call a Holy War and b. use De Jure claims rather than Holy Wars when possible. Possibly also to know when it is a good time to assault a holding, though that's a wider issue.

    That the AI does not do these things is the only area where they might be any sort of problem here. If they then lose because the Muslims are much more powerful then... well, that's how it should be.

    I don't quite understand your analysis,, I am afraid. It implies a human cannot win, because the situation is the same for humans. The fact is, good timing wins you that war with ease.
    a human can win. but the AI isnt as smart as a human. the AI assembles a army of 10k men and then loses 5k men to attrition while chasing 100 men. but a human wil ALWAYS be better at a game then a AI can ever be. its just a problem that the AI cannot analise the strenght of factions well. he will go to war when a faction isnt weak at all, and not go to war when youre on your weakest point in centuries. my main concer is that A. mauritania will prove too strong once it gobbles up south ibeira and B. that the cristian kingdoms will waste too much men fighting eachother to be even effective against cordoba and beja. also, galicia doesnt even HAVE de jure claims. i get that you cant buff the cristians into heaven or nerf muslims to the ground. i get that a larger faction will useally come out on top. but that would mean that the reconquista never could have happened, as without HRE or france support the AI simply will lose. point is, a bit more balance would be nice(the kingdoms generally survivng till mid 1100's, maybe even a stalemate, and SOMETIMES they even win) as in most areas there is a nice balance(save for maybe the byzantines VS the seljuks) exept in iberia.

  11. #71
    The civil wars inside of iberian kingdoms can be crippling. For example, as Leon, your sister always rebels and it interrupts my wars as she can call Galicia and Castille in on her side.

  12. #72
    Captain Corelay's Avatar
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    Yup, tried a Leon game lately and that happened almost at once. On the other hand, it's a very winnable rebellion and you get the demense off of her when you win it.

  13. #73
    and you also have nuno revolting in galicia. all while castilel thinks: LOL, im going for zaragosa ASAP! and gets dogpiled because leon and galicia couldnt help him. or you have galicia excommunicating evryone.

    note: in my current game castille is groing again. my bother in alw's on the throne now(granting him an alliance with me) so im now expanding his realm the gamey way until he owns and digested about half iberia. will see what happens then.

  14. #74
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    I started Navarra, one hundred years after, the reconquista was finished...
    Navarra is kingdom of Castilla, Leon, Aragon, Navarra and Africa (this last was given to my daughter in law)...
    we survive very well to saracens, because we all were together...
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  15. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by shanalya View Post
    I started Navarra, one hundred years after, the reconquista was finished...
    Navarra is kingdom of Castilla, Leon, Aragon, Navarra and Africa (this last was given to my daughter in law)...
    we survive very well to saracens, because we all were together...
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  16. #76
    If you start only 20 yars later, in 25 may 1085, thare is big Castilia kingdom and reconqista is not garanteed but very possible. At least they hold their positions for long time.

  17. #77
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    In my games I've never seen Spanish kingdoms existed even by 1180. Sometimes though the whole Peninsula gets conquered by France or HRE. Once I've seen it controlled in maybe 3/4 by England, fighting with France for former Aragon. This really need to be fixed (maybe by giving spanish provinces some defence bonus?).
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  18. #78
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    I thought the start of the game was when the reconquista had started to seem more plausible, no? What with the collapse of al-Andalus and everything. But either way, while the christian kingdoms were in no way in a strong state surely they should stand a reasonable chance of winning. When I play CK2+ the christian kingdoms actually seem too powerful, but to me that is still preferable to always seeing a muslim spain with perhaps one or two tiny christian nations, and sometimes french or HRE 'colonies', which never return to spanish kingdoms. While a player can always use his brain to conquer Iberia, most people don't want to always have to either play as or interfere with Iberian nations just to see the christian knigdoms stand a chance of surviving or expanding.

  19. #79
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    The problem is that the Spanish Kingdom AI declares war on its Christian Allies for some claim or other and then Muslim neighbors with Tech and Numbers advantage "see weakness" and dogpile on with a Holy War.The only time I see an Iberian Kingdom survive is when I play as one.And then I was Castille and finished Reconquista by 1230.

  20. #80
    There is a guy in this thread that keeps saying that the muslims had the upper hand in Iberia by 1066, well, that is actually not correct. If you read any book about Spanish history, you'll see that Fernando I (the father of the 3 kings) was winning every war against the muslim until he died (and split the kingdom in 3... he was a fucking asshole) In fact, the emirates to the south (beja badajoz and cordoba) were paying him taxes by the time he died and kept doing them after it (And 5 years later Sancho II of Leon would reunite the kingdoms, and then they would be inherited by Alfonso VII again.)

    The only way in-game to make christian Iberia survive is by making the 3 kings merge their territories together, I think this should be "forced" by lowering all their relationships between them, and buffering relations with their rivals vassals while keeping their own vassals relations "not-that-good". Also, the internal fights between the muslims are not reflected historically in-game, they will never attack eachother and think there is a lack of divided taifas dunno if it is done in pourpose... whatever, the devs must have a look at iberia and make it 60/40 for the christians to beat the muslims, to be honst that sounds like fair odds

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