SSSR overpower or Germany underpowered

[ljigsrb]

ive played as japan 3 times in the row. once 41 comes Germany dow SU. I dow SU as well. got entire russian east coast than thou india and persia got stalingrad and svedlovsk. However Germany cant even capture minsk and kiev it only advanced few provinces to the east.. As u guys know main reason why moscow didnt fall is due to Siberian divisions from east reinforced moscow in late 1941. Germany cant win even with help of japan,china,india. Makes no sence.

p.s. 1.08b3

[Pang Bingxun]

In my last game germany took riga, orsha, priluki and perekop in the first weeks of the war. Some of my proposed changes in the beta thread(see posts #68 and #83) seem to help.

[mcganyol]

As u guys know main reason why moscow didnt fall is due to Siberian divisions from east reinforced moscow in late 1941.

You know, this is an urban legend. Bulk of the red army was newly recruited / newly equipped. The redeployed few siberian divisions were outdated and seriously underpowered. Their role in defending Moscow was close to none. Best thing ussr got from siberia was Zhukov himself (who organized Moscow's defense).

But you are right that ai usually performs pathetic in plan Barbarossa. I guess we have to live with it, and play aod in multiplayer.

[Mr_B0narpte]

You know, this is an urban legend. Bulk of the red army was newly recruited / newly equipped. The redeployed few siberian divisions were outdated and seriously underpowered. Their role in defending Moscow was close to none. Best thing ussr got from siberia was Zhukov himself (who organized Moscow's defense).

Really? Who said that?

[clist123abc]

Really? Who said that?

Yes it seems to be a myth, just like blitzkrieg, or polish cavalry charging tanks

http://operationbarbarossa.net/Myth-...hbusters3.html

same goes for the Russians ramming their tanks or Prokhorovka being the largest tank battle of the war

http://www.uni.edu/~licari/citadel.htm

http://www.amazon.com/Demolishing-My.../dp/1906033897

David Glantz and others Russian historians point out that a lot of the Soviet myths relating to WW2 are being dispelled because the Stavka archives were partially released as the Russians do not have publicly objective seminars on battles like they do at the War College for instance. Sad thing is that after Glantz came out with Operation Mars, Zhukov's Greatest defeat they shut down the archives because he was being a supposed revisionist so who knows what else we are wrong about.

It's kinda like the skull that was supposedly Hitler's kept in Moscow with only photos released. When they finally got around to testing it they found out it was a woman and don't even ask me what that means

I can't help but think that if a student who had access to those archives was tested on those battles and gave the historically correct answer they would fail the exam

[Serenissima]

operationbarbarossa.net is fairly well-known for its pro-Axis slant on things and agenda, it has to be said; so it should not be taken as gospel, only read with other sources.

(The author's view of 'objective' seems to be that anyone who doesn't agree with him that the Wehrmacht was the best thing ever is 'not objective' and 'biased' due to 'liberal revisionism'.)

So, it can of course be read... but don't take it as a reliable source.

[daniel1111]

wow i do not think i will get involved in this one....

[daniel1111]

i guess 90% of the members will not understand your post...any one who can translate that into english

[Titan79]

i guess 90% of the members will not understand your post...any one who can translate that into english

That's a spambot - hopefully that post will be quickly deleted and the "user" banned.

[ljigsrb]

A loth of this myth stuff i know for a fact its not mith.

My grand-granpa was with russians when they liberated Serbia and Belgrade in 1944. Once he told me that he has seen ramming tanks on the fields on Vojvodina. His story was that German Panther got his tracks jammed so russian t34 just rammed him.

Ive read some russian soldier memoars. guy is saying that Moscow was on the brink of collapse. he claims russians were in such a disarray even few parashoot brigades in moscow downtown would off bring moscow to collapse.

Now i know history is written by the victors.

[ljigsrb]

Yes it seems to be a myth, just like blitzkrieg, or polish cavalry charging tanks

http://operationbarbarossa.net/Myth-...hbusters3.html

same goes for the Russians ramming their tanks or Prokhorovka being the largest tank battle of the war

http://www.uni.edu/~licari/citadel.htm

http://www.amazon.com/Demolishing-My.../dp/1906033897

David Glantz and others Russian historians point out that a lot of the Soviet myths relating to WW2 are being dispelled because the Stavka archives were partially released as the Russians do not have publicly objective seminars on battles like they do at the War College for instance. Sad thing is that after Glantz came out with Operation Mars, Zhukov's Greatest defeat they shut down the archives because he was being a supposed revisionist so who knows what else we are wrong about.

It's kinda like the skull that was supposedly Hitler's kept in Moscow with only photos released. When they finally got around to testing it they found out it was a woman and don't even ask me what that means

I can't help but think that if a student who had access to those archives was tested on those battles and gave the historically correct answer they would fail the exam

why blitzkrieg was a myth ? its a FACT that German military machine conquered entire continental europe within a year or so(excluding USSR) with inferior numbers of troops.

[clist123abc]

I encourage you to read this book that revises many misconceptions.

http://www.amazon.com/The-Blitzkrieg...pr_product_top

this video also touches on it from 10 minutes to about 15

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=erwgI...ure=plpp_video

Frieser's job was to do research for the German army and his book caused a mini revolution after it came out.

[bestmajor]

clist i dont know what you think blitzkrieg is, but iirc there have been at least two Blitzkriege during ww2: conquering yugoslavia (succesful) and operation barbarossa (not succesful, thus followed by case blue) and the MGFA states this very clearly in the "Das Deutsche Reich und der zweite Weltkrieg" series. i have not read Friesers book, but i would wonder if he denied the existence of Blitzkriege (or attempts) in his book?
wouldnt rate the french or polish campaigns as Blitzkrieg as they were not planned as such.

[Mr_B0narpte]

To bring it back to the OP's original topic:

ive played as japan 3 times in the row. once 41 comes Germany dow SU. I dow SU as well. got entire russian east coast than thou india and persia got stalingrad and svedlovsk. However Germany cant even capture minsk and kiev it only advanced few provinces to the east.. [cut this portion out to avoid bringing it up] Makes no sence.

p.s. 1.08b3

This does make no sense at all, historically or gameplay wise. If Japan did join the war against the USSR in 1941, the Soviet Union would not have stood much of a chance against Germany. Even if this is not the case, then at least we can agree the German AI needs to, at least, be able to advance to Kiev and Minsk regardless of whether or not Japan joins the war.

[ljigsrb]

with current ai Germany comes some 1000 km from stalingrad at the closest

[Mr_B0narpte]

with current ai Germany comes some 1000 km from stalingrad at the closest

Do you mean in 1941 or in general?

[clist123abc]

why blitzkrieg was a myth ? its a FACT that German military machine conquered entire continental europe within a year or so(excluding USSR) with inferior numbers of troops.

According to Frieser up until Barbarossa Germany conducted a war of movement or Bewegungskrieg as blitzkrieg did not exist.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blitzkrieg#Controversy

This is a partial quote from his book.
Because time, in the long run, worked against Germany, there was really only the chance of starting out on a flight forward, putting all the money on one card, and overrunning the enemy by a surprise attack. But the German command shied away precisely from this kind of venturesome undertaking, mindful of the trauma of the Schlieffen plan that had failed during World War I..The campaign in the west thus was not a planned campaign of conquest. Instead, it was an operational act of despair to get out of a desperate strategic situation. What is called "blitzkrieg thinking" did not develop until after the campaign in the west. It was not the cause but rather the consequence of the victory. Something that, in May 1940, had come off successfully to everyone's surprise, was now to serve the implementation of Hitler's visions of conquest in the form of the secret of success."

As for tank ramming the supposed myth is related to the battle of prokhorovka. This is from a Russian perspective

http://www.amazon.com/Demolishing-My.../dp/1906033897

[ljigsrb]

Do you mean in 1941 or in general?

In general. Because once great patritic war event fires up germany can hardly advance one extra province. So with current AI and events no way that germany can do any effective offensive latter than 1941

[Mr_B0narpte]

In general. Because once great patritic war event fires up germany can hardly advance one extra province. So with current AI and events no way that germany can do any effective offensive latter than 1941

IMO the German AI does need major improvements in regards to Barbarossa. Either through quick fixes such as giving Germany short term advantages when war breaks out (i.e. increased chance of surprise attack, higher morale) or the long term fix of improving the German AI's ability in combat, maybe even giving it the ability to perform large scale encirclements (against other AI at least).

[Tomnoddy]

I'm trying to think if there's any ways to more realistically model the eastern front campaign than cheating with GDE penalties.

Add victory point provinces all along the russo-german border, but leave gaps between. Set the soviet AI to build lots of inf, i think there's an ai switch to have it assign troops to victory points. This should make the ai germany encircle the soviet formations. By august, change the build scheme to do a massive parallel build of mountain inf, which should all be finished about the time that the snows fall. At this point switch to a more rational AI priority (defensive/offensive).

After that, have the AI build mostly moto inf with a few tanks. These divisions will be very hard to encircle and together with declining ESE, will cause the german advance to bog down in 1942.