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Thread: SSSR overpower or Germany underpowered

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    First Lieutenant ljigsrb's Avatar
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    SSSR overpower or Germany underpowered

    ive played as japan 3 times in the row. once 41 comes Germany dow SU. I dow SU as well. got entire russian east coast than thou india and persia got stalingrad and svedlovsk. However Germany cant even capture minsk and kiev it only advanced few provinces to the east.. As u guys know main reason why moscow didnt fall is due to Siberian divisions from east reinforced moscow in late 1941. Germany cant win even with help of japan,china,india. Makes no sence.

    p.s. 1.08b3
    Last edited by ljigsrb; 19-05-2012 at 03:40.

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    In my last game germany took riga, orsha, priluki and perekop in the first weeks of the war. Some of my proposed changes in the beta thread(see posts #68 and #83) seem to help.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ljigsrb View Post
    As u guys know main reason why moscow didnt fall is due to Siberian divisions from east reinforced moscow in late 1941.
    You know, this is an urban legend. Bulk of the red army was newly recruited / newly equipped. The redeployed few siberian divisions were outdated and seriously underpowered. Their role in defending Moscow was close to none. Best thing ussr got from siberia was Zhukov himself (who organized Moscow's defense).

    But you are right that ai usually performs pathetic in plan Barbarossa. I guess we have to live with it, and play aod in multiplayer.
    Last edited by mcganyol; 20-05-2012 at 11:57.

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    Field Marshal Mr_B0narpte's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcganyol View Post
    You know, this is an urban legend. Bulk of the red army was newly recruited / newly equipped. The redeployed few siberian divisions were outdated and seriously underpowered. Their role in defending Moscow was close to none. Best thing ussr got from siberia was Zhukov himself (who organized Moscow's defense).
    Really? Who said that?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr_B0narpte View Post
    Really? Who said that?
    Yes it seems to be a myth, just like blitzkrieg, or polish cavalry charging tanks

    http://operationbarbarossa.net/Myth-...hbusters3.html

    same goes for the Russians ramming their tanks or Prokhorovka being the largest tank battle of the war

    http://www.uni.edu/~licari/citadel.htm

    http://www.amazon.com/Demolishing-My.../dp/1906033897

    David Glantz and others Russian historians point out that a lot of the Soviet myths relating to WW2 are being dispelled because the Stavka archives were partially released as the Russians do not have publicly objective seminars on battles like they do at the War College for instance. Sad thing is that after Glantz came out with Operation Mars, Zhukov's Greatest defeat they shut down the archives because he was being a supposed revisionist so who knows what else we are wrong about.

    It's kinda like the skull that was supposedly Hitler's kept in Moscow with only photos released. When they finally got around to testing it they found out it was a woman and don't even ask me what that means

    I can't help but think that if a student who had access to those archives was tested on those battles and gave the historically correct answer they would fail the exam
    "When a man knows he is to be hanged in a fortnight, it concentrates his mind wonderfully." - Samuel Johnson

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    operationbarbarossa.net is fairly well-known for its pro-Axis slant on things and agenda, it has to be said; so it should not be taken as gospel, only read with other sources.

    (The author's view of 'objective' seems to be that anyone who doesn't agree with him that the Wehrmacht was the best thing ever is 'not objective' and 'biased' due to 'liberal revisionism'.)

    So, it can of course be read... but don't take it as a reliable source.
    Most Serene

    (Currently working on: Mod1914)

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    First Lieutenant daniel1111's Avatar
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    wow i do not think i will get involved in this one....
    Last edited by daniel1111; 25-05-2012 at 22:45.
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    i guess 90% of the members will not understand your post...any one who can translate that into english
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    War is over! if you want it Titan79's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by daniel1111 View Post
    i guess 90% of the members will not understand your post...any one who can translate that into english
    That's a spambot - hopefully that post will be quickly deleted and the "user" banned.
    “Every truth passes through three stages before it is recognized: in the first it is ridiculed, in the second it is opposed, in the third it is regarded as self-evident” (Arthur Schopenhauer)


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    First Lieutenant ljigsrb's Avatar
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    A loth of this myth stuff i know for a fact its not mith.

    My grand-granpa was with russians when they liberated Serbia and Belgrade in 1944. Once he told me that he has seen ramming tanks on the fields on Vojvodina. His story was that German Panther got his tracks jammed so russian t34 just rammed him.

    Ive read some russian soldier memoars. guy is saying that Moscow was on the brink of collapse. he claims russians were in such a disarray even few parashoot brigades in moscow downtown would off bring moscow to collapse.

    Now i know history is written by the victors.

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    First Lieutenant ljigsrb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by clist123abc View Post
    Yes it seems to be a myth, just like blitzkrieg, or polish cavalry charging tanks

    http://operationbarbarossa.net/Myth-...hbusters3.html

    same goes for the Russians ramming their tanks or Prokhorovka being the largest tank battle of the war

    http://www.uni.edu/~licari/citadel.htm

    http://www.amazon.com/Demolishing-My.../dp/1906033897

    David Glantz and others Russian historians point out that a lot of the Soviet myths relating to WW2 are being dispelled because the Stavka archives were partially released as the Russians do not have publicly objective seminars on battles like they do at the War College for instance. Sad thing is that after Glantz came out with Operation Mars, Zhukov's Greatest defeat they shut down the archives because he was being a supposed revisionist so who knows what else we are wrong about.

    It's kinda like the skull that was supposedly Hitler's kept in Moscow with only photos released. When they finally got around to testing it they found out it was a woman and don't even ask me what that means

    I can't help but think that if a student who had access to those archives was tested on those battles and gave the historically correct answer they would fail the exam
    why blitzkrieg was a myth ? its a FACT that German military machine conquered entire continental europe within a year or so(excluding USSR) with inferior numbers of troops.

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    I encourage you to read this book that revises many misconceptions.

    http://www.amazon.com/The-Blitzkrieg...pr_product_top

    this video also touches on it from 10 minutes to about 15

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=erwgI...ure=plpp_video

    Frieser's job was to do research for the German army and his book caused a mini revolution after it came out.
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    clist i dont know what you think blitzkrieg is, but iirc there have been at least two Blitzkriege during ww2: conquering yugoslavia (succesful) and operation barbarossa (not succesful, thus followed by case blue) and the MGFA states this very clearly in the "Das Deutsche Reich und der zweite Weltkrieg" series. i have not read Friesers book, but i would wonder if he denied the existence of Blitzkriege (or attempts) in his book?
    wouldnt rate the french or polish campaigns as Blitzkrieg as they were not planned as such.

  14. #14
    Field Marshal Mr_B0narpte's Avatar
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    To bring it back to the OP's original topic:
    Quote Originally Posted by ljigsrb View Post
    ive played as japan 3 times in the row. once 41 comes Germany dow SU. I dow SU as well. got entire russian east coast than thou india and persia got stalingrad and svedlovsk. However Germany cant even capture minsk and kiev it only advanced few provinces to the east.. [cut this portion out to avoid bringing it up] Makes no sence.

    p.s. 1.08b3
    This does make no sense at all, historically or gameplay wise. If Japan did join the war against the USSR in 1941, the Soviet Union would not have stood much of a chance against Germany. Even if this is not the case, then at least we can agree the German AI needs to, at least, be able to advance to Kiev and Minsk regardless of whether or not Japan joins the war.
    The man who has no sense of history, is like a man who has no ears or eyes - that guy, you know THAT GUY
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    A three-player online AoD AAR using the Improved 1936 mod - currently reached August 1941: the game has ended but the AAR is in need of updating

    My first AAR playing as Germany using the AoD Third Reich Mod - currently reached August 1945: postponed

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    First Lieutenant ljigsrb's Avatar
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    with current ai Germany comes some 1000 km from stalingrad at the closest

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    Field Marshal Mr_B0narpte's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ljigsrb View Post
    with current ai Germany comes some 1000 km from stalingrad at the closest
    Do you mean in 1941 or in general?
    The man who has no sense of history, is like a man who has no ears or eyes - that guy, you know THAT GUY
    There is nothing new in the world except the history you do not know - Harry Truman
    And well, everything can be obvious... but only after you've found it out or someone told you. - Titan79

    AARs:
    The BBC Reports! An ten-player online 1936 AoD AAR using the 1.09 changes 25: ongoing

    A three-player online AoD AAR using the Improved 1936 mod - currently reached August 1941: the game has ended but the AAR is in need of updating

    My first AAR playing as Germany using the AoD Third Reich Mod - currently reached August 1945: postponed

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    Quote Originally Posted by ljigsrb View Post
    why blitzkrieg was a myth ? its a FACT that German military machine conquered entire continental europe within a year or so(excluding USSR) with inferior numbers of troops.
    According to Frieser up until Barbarossa Germany conducted a war of movement or Bewegungskrieg as blitzkrieg did not exist.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blitzkrieg#Controversy

    This is a partial quote from his book.
    Because time, in the long run, worked against Germany, there was really only the chance of starting out on a flight forward, putting all the money on one card, and overrunning the enemy by a surprise attack. But the German command shied away precisely from this kind of venturesome undertaking, mindful of the trauma of the Schlieffen plan that had failed during World War I..The campaign in the west thus was not a planned campaign of conquest. Instead, it was an operational act of despair to get out of a desperate strategic situation. What is called "blitzkrieg thinking" did not develop until after the campaign in the west. It was not the cause but rather the consequence of the victory. Something that, in May 1940, had come off successfully to everyone's surprise, was now to serve the implementation of Hitler's visions of conquest in the form of the secret of success."

    As for tank ramming the supposed myth is related to the battle of prokhorovka. This is from a Russian perspective

    http://www.amazon.com/Demolishing-My.../dp/1906033897
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    A British view of Bismarck and Moltke

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  18. #18
    First Lieutenant ljigsrb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr_B0narpte View Post
    Do you mean in 1941 or in general?
    In general. Because once great patritic war event fires up germany can hardly advance one extra province. So with current AI and events no way that germany can do any effective offensive latter than 1941

  19. #19
    Field Marshal Mr_B0narpte's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ljigsrb View Post
    In general. Because once great patritic war event fires up germany can hardly advance one extra province. So with current AI and events no way that germany can do any effective offensive latter than 1941
    IMO the German AI does need major improvements in regards to Barbarossa. Either through quick fixes such as giving Germany short term advantages when war breaks out (i.e. increased chance of surprise attack, higher morale) or the long term fix of improving the German AI's ability in combat, maybe even giving it the ability to perform large scale encirclements (against other AI at least).
    The man who has no sense of history, is like a man who has no ears or eyes - that guy, you know THAT GUY
    There is nothing new in the world except the history you do not know - Harry Truman
    And well, everything can be obvious... but only after you've found it out or someone told you. - Titan79

    AARs:
    The BBC Reports! An ten-player online 1936 AoD AAR using the 1.09 changes 25: ongoing

    A three-player online AoD AAR using the Improved 1936 mod - currently reached August 1941: the game has ended but the AAR is in need of updating

    My first AAR playing as Germany using the AoD Third Reich Mod - currently reached August 1945: postponed

  20. #20
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    I'm trying to think if there's any ways to more realistically model the eastern front campaign than cheating with GDE penalties.

    Add victory point provinces all along the russo-german border, but leave gaps between. Set the soviet AI to build lots of inf, i think there's an ai switch to have it assign troops to victory points. This should make the ai germany encircle the soviet formations. By august, change the build scheme to do a massive parallel build of mountain inf, which should all be finished about the time that the snows fall. At this point switch to a more rational AI priority (defensive/offensive).

    After that, have the AI build mostly moto inf with a few tanks. These divisions will be very hard to encircle and together with declining ESE, will cause the german advance to bog down in 1942.

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